Have you?
because there was a whole popular thread on here about The Ranger General being back… Are you so sure you are part of the majority anymore?
Sylvanas has never been particularly anti-necromancy. That was Voss, that was her entire MO. Up until she was conscripted by Force into BfA, she was either hunting down Scarlets or Necros.
Sylvanas was always anti-Arthas, but she has always been very “ends justify the means” when it comes to fulfilling that objective. And ever since Cata she has been more than willing to kill and raise targets to bolster her “Bulwark Against the Infinite”. One which, by the looks of things, ceased to be of sufficient value. And was discarded, just like her Arrows. Which is as classic a Sylvie move as there could be.
We also still know jack-diddly-squat about what she was doing in Stormheim. We know for a fact that nothing she says can ever be taken at face value. And that was the same zone where Sylvie pulls a direct homage to Arthas’ “new world order” line when he betrayed Terenas. But suspiciously, only to the Alliance PC. Huh … its almost like they were never planning for her to be positive for the Horde.
And no, Sylvanas critics don’t say “she was like this the whole time”. What we say is “the parts of her that could lead to her actions in BfA have been part of her characterization for a long time”.
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we know why Sylvanas was in Stormheim, she told us so, she was searching for a means to give her unlimited Valkyr so that she could give the Forsaken a future, since Forsaken cannot reproduce, decay is still a threat to Forsaken. They would die out unless they found a means to prolong thier own existance. This lead to a debate within the Forsaken in Before the Storm on if Forsaken should continue as a race or simply fade away. Sylvanas was very adamant that the Forsaken should continue to exist. You mentioned the ‘arrows in the quiver’ line which has been misunderstood. Sylvanas using her Farstriders like arrows in a quiver was supposed to mean that lives have value and they can be used to fight enemies, in both cases of that analogy it was Arthas, but Edge of Night also presented the idea that in the grand scale of things Arthas and the Lich King were only small potatoes, the Jailer is the real threat.
So you can take that context, of why she would believe that the Forsaken needed to be strong to be used as arrows to fight an even bigger enemy: The Jailer. But see using the Forsaken as this type of army against the Jailer was undermined by the fact that Sylvanas and the Forsaken value free will and Sylvanas lost the means to an end to create endless Forsaken in Stormheim when Genn broke the Soul Cage.
The Soul Cage could have been a tool Sylvanas used to defeat the Jailer, it had the power to compel ANY soul.
As for your suggestion that she was never supposed to be a good thing for the Horde, as yet she was. At the Broken Shore she could have left the Horde to die but she called on her Valkyr to save the Horde leaders. Without that resource the Horde would not have survived the Broken Shore.
Yes, because she’s always honest and open about her intentions. She is never subtle or secretive, and is a terrible liar. Which is why she went off on a personal errand with only her Forsaken, where all but a few weren’t privy to why they were there either, in Stormheim.
She was being perfectly on the level when she offered Garithos Lordaeron if he helped her kill Datheroc. She led her “Mongrel Race of Rotten Corpses” into Northrend telling them that they too were just her “Arrows in her Quiver”. Ones discarded like garbage. She was absolutely the type to build her forces in Cata by shouting “You’re all my meatsheild against my afterlife!” And she was certainly the type to be so transparent to rally the Troops at Lordaeron screaming “FOR ME!” And despite never being given a motive to start caring about “her people” or her “Alliance of Convenience” (beyond her need to use them), she magically started caring about them. Offscreen. But, sure, she’s the edgy Tsundere you’re describing here.
EDIT: And as a note, while good archers can and do retrieve and reuse arrows, not once has Sylvanas ever used that phrase to refer to anything but expendable ammunition she will not reclaim. But to exclusively sacrificial pawns. No matter how important they may be in that sacrifice.
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hahaha she actually is.
She’s really easy to read and when she’s lying she’s really over the top.
But there is a real level of honesty that she presents to you if you are a loyalist, not to mention that you actually get her internal monologues in Edge of Night, War Crimes, Before the Storm and A Good War and she has no reason to lie to herself. Internal monologues are supposed to be read as truth so yes you can take her internal monologues at face value.
Sure. God I love “Sylvanas fans”.
While sure, there were absolutely other facets of her characterization that could have led her other directions (I will NEVER deny that), the parts of her that led her on one like the one she went on were absolutely established long ago. A selfish, nihilist who conflates what’s good for her as what’s good for others. And a woman who uses other as tools for personal objectives, then discards them when they cease to be of sufficient use. Its just, normally, the people she does that with are dicks. So no-one cares (she’s pulled that stunt so much since WC3 nothing could be more in character for her).
No character in this franchise has more people WANTING to give them the benefit of the doubt more than Sylvanas Windrunner. And rarely in this franchise do I see a character where more of their fans seem to love the concept of a character more than the genuine article as much as with her. I’ve been calling her using and discarding us since the Tree burned, and have been expecting her to betray us in some way since Stormheim. No way in hell Blizz kills jin for her, if all they intended was for her to fill a role he could have filled … but worse. And I’m not even a “real” Sylvie fan. Why were you so blindsided by her betrayal then?
EDIT: And yeah, if you take her “internal dialogues” literally in EoN, War Crimes, and BtS … she comes off as a deranged psychopath who can never care about others she doesn’t have full control over. And will never care more about them as people, than her need to use them as tools. Or where you stating I should only take what she says out loud “At face value”, and then “read between the lines” with her internal dialogue? Since taking her internal dialogue at face value in all three of those books makes her look horrible?
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you don’t like losing do you?
Not on this topic. Had enough people use “I just don’t get Sylvanas” 2 and 1/2 years ago when I called her doing EXACTLY what she did. I just assumed she was being used/manipulated by Yogg Saron. Rather than a new character who fills the exact same role. Sylvanas is a great character, but she has never been this motherly figure for the Forsaken. Quite frankly, she came off more as their abuser with the types of manipulation tactics she relied on to keep them in line. And as a Gob and Forsaken fan, its hard not to notice how similar Wix and Sylvie’s use of their peoples were. He was just never worried about keeping up appearances like she was. But his Bilgewater were no less tools for him, than her Forsaken were for her.
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Boi, those cinematics show us a defeated woman resigned to what she THINKS is correct, who Anduin manages to get a rise out of when he implies that she knows what she’s doing is wrong. If she thought she was using him, she’d be far more confident in this plan of her’s.
She’s not. So even if the “Ranger-General is still in there,” which I honestly couldn’t care less about, that’s not gonna change a single thing about anything aside from the fact that she finally grew a brain and realized “oh Jailer BAD” like the rest of us. Gaining common sense will not exonerate her character.
Claiming that the person arguing just doesn’t get Sylvanas’s character over and over again is not you “winning.” It’s just you deflecting. Pretty much everything Droite said is correct.
This. Biiiiiiiig big this. Especially in Before the Storm, where she literally allows the Forsaken to go see their loved ones because she thinks they’ll be rejected and that will drive them back into her arms (which it does in one case), and then kills them when that doesn’t happen because they can’t have hope in anything but her.
She reads like a toxic girlfriend, who has to make sure that her SO doesn’t rely on anything but her. And when there’s nothing left to be gained from them, she tosses them to the curb. It’s gross.
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It’s not a wild theory!
A soul whose essence is too much for the Arbiter to handle or judge breaking the machinery of the First Ones. Maybe not Gul’dan, but it’s very plausible and it opens up so many avenues for the story can take.
Never thought of it that way.
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As a note, quite a few of them get rejected on the borders of the Gathering. These are the only Forsaken that were allowed to survive that encounter, because they are the only ones who reaffirmed her narrative. That their loved ones will NEVER accept them back. There were also 2 or 3 families that did actually genuinely reconnect, on the opposite side of the spectrum. The majority though, they met with their Loved Ones in life, and … simply … mutually realized they are just too different for those reconnections. So, both sides, sadly, left the other on respected grounds. To return to their new lives.
Sylvanas killed group B (those that reconnected), and group C (the bigger group that walked away mutually). Because both of these groups were a danger to the story she spun that keeps her people dependent and subservient. And that is not to say that Undead shouldn’t keep some healthy skepticism and caution when interacting with Living Humans (Voss is right), but not for the reasons Sylvanas wanted them to.
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The devs said that there was a winning side and a losing side in this Sylvanas debate and they also said that Sylvanas Loyalists were right. He said that in the same Blizzcon you originally sourced your comment from. Your comment was sources from the Warcraft What’s next panel and Steve saying Loyalists made the right choice was from the Warcraft Q&A panel.
So, it’s not just about arguing. Sylvanas loyalists were right and Shadowlands is rewarding our patience. There is nothing you can say that contradicts this.
Source? Also, how can the “Loyalist” be right about anything? Outside Blind Faith and being OK being a witless, expendable tool? They were convinced they were fighting for the Horde till she bailed.
Because you are truly lying if you say that the “Loyalist Route” had any indication of what exactly she was doing, or what her true motives were. Even in your little end quest all she talks in is vague aggrandizement and how wonderful you are for that devotion. They had no opinion to be right about, especially since so many of them continued to claim she was “truly fighting for the Horde” up until 8.2.5 and her “sudden but inevitable betrayal”. Y’know, with no real motive ever given for her to care about that Horde.
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Literally everything I’ve said contradicts this. What you’ve just said doesn’t contradict anything I said.
The Loyalists backed the wrong horse, and Sylvanas rewarded this by not protecting them for said loyalty. Also you got a source on Steve saying that? Cause I don’t recall that whatsoever and it sounds like you made it up.
This is a good point, nobody ever really talks about this. It’s more or less impossible to say the Loyalists were “right” when the whole entire pretense for being a Loyalist was built on a giant lie that was exposed well before Shadowlands.
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The sad thing is there are so many inconsistencies that this plot comes across as very forced and silly. I’m not arguing against the facts you’re laying out btw - just a comment on the story itself, which has been bad.
Also just a minor side note (not really important) - in Edge of Night she makes a deal with the Val’kyr (who worked for the Lich King and ostensibly the Jailer) but we don’t know if she actually met the Jailer then or not.
They grabbed her soul, offered her a deal, she rejected it, they tossed her into the Maw, then she accepted it and came back to life. At the very least she was then working for the Jailer by proxy.
Regardless basically they’ve been working together for a decade and the writers are trying to somehow make that seem like it was legitimately part of the plot. It hasn’t gone well in my opinion (just an opinion though).
Sylvanas has always come across as an “ends justify the means” character. She’s also exceptionally guarded - rarely revealing much or trusting anyone. After the issue with her sister (and Garrosh) she became even more cut off from people.
Conceptually though the story goes from Sylvanas losing to the Scourge, raised as a banshee, tortured, freed, and doing whatever it takes to execute vengeance against the Lich King. During the time she even tries to help the Blood Elves. After her vendetta completed she wanted to finally die. Get the peace Arthas had denied her and leave the torment behind … and then she ends up working for the guy responsible for everything bad that has happened to her.
I hope they put some effort into plugging that hole a little bit.
Then maybe addressing the glaring issue of how undead souls work. Or why no one told the Kyrian to shuffle some souls off into storage somewhere instead of continuing to drop them at the feet of a disabled Arbiter. Or how none of the First Ones thought that an entire realm of bloodsport might lead to … well … them killing each other. Or some basics about psychology and what might happen if you created a realm of torturers and torturees. Or why the Arbiter has a default factory setting of “Maw” and no one can find the manual to change it. Or why the people in Oribos believe everything is part of the Purpose but not the Jailer. Or what the Jailer did to end up in the Maw. Or why the Jailer seems to let me run roughshod over his tower (Torghast) but if I walk into the wrong part of the Maw or kill a few too many quest mobs I instantly die. Okay that last one is just gameplay design. Sorry.
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Maybe something like a titan, something like Argus, the titan of death?
Something so powerful coming in, vastly more powerful than mortal souls and corrupted by Sargeras into something terrible. The timing is about right.
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Xavuis maybe?
not really. You are blinded by your love of the character. Sylvanas has always been one who looked out for number one. Since her inception; she has only acted either in self preservation or revenge. She made a deal with Zorvaal out of self preservation, and has been acting as such. BFA is her thrust into the spot light, where she can’t scheme in the darkness.
She watched as civilians got experimented on with glee in the Arthas Novel. She has always been like this. She has always been amoral and prone to cruelty.
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It was making the rounds a while ago. It should be easy for people who missed it to find. I kind of remember the jist of it. I will try and bring a little context.
In describing the “Loyalist Path”, Blizzard said Sylvanas wanted us to know that we were on “the right side of it”. But I understood that as Sylvanas’s perspective. I figured she was telling Loyalists that, in her opinion, our actions were in the right. I didn’t take it as an overall narrative perspective saying she is right. It is a subtle difference. But I guess you have to read their exact words to make up your mind.
On the topic of the Arbiter being taken out… I started working on a far out theory.
The Arbiter is hit by a red cloud. Revendreth is red themed. Denathrius designed his realm and the general rules for processing souls for further judgement. He gets the terrible souls to work on, then sends them back to the Arbiter for further judgement.
Which means he could have sent some sort of false amalgamation to the Arbiter that is made up of all the evils and sins his people have been purging. Maybe he was separating Anima for the Jailor, and building up all bad stuff he purged to create some sort of Soul Amalgamation made up of terrible and regrettable deeds and emotions to overwhelm the Arbiter’s sensations and processes.
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We don’t really get to see much of what happens to souls who are redeemed and sent back but we don’t know how they are if they are at all. But the cinematic doesn’t imply that the soles coming in would be from any of the other realms.
At least, it didn’t give me that impression. Granted, we can’t really tell much of how any of it works beyond what we see.