Was just a talent back in Wrath. But still operated in the same manner. Critting with Wrath would give you a buff window for Starfire and vice versa
These buff windows were called: Solar and Lunar Eclipses
In Cata it was converted into a bar. But same rules applies. Wraths moved the bar towards Lunar eclipse and Starfire moved the bar towards Solar. This carried through into MoP
WoD it got another face-lift to the pendelum on a timer
Then as you said, in Legion they changed it to empowerments where buffs came from spenders instead of builders (but had the same concept of buffing your AP generators)
BFA stuck with empowerments.
Then we go back to alrernating eclipse states in SL and DF.
So by my count, thats 8 out of 10 expansions dealing with Solar/Lunar. If you dont want to count the Empowerments, its 6 out of 10. And soon to be 7 out of 11. Majority
Introduced in arguably the best expansion of the game.
No argument against that. But i think they were an experiment. And while there was nothing wrong with them per se, i dont think its what the devs were looking for.
Why that is? I dunno. Perhaps because it was like 100% uptime on empowered builders and there was no screwing up with the system, and youâd end up overcapping empowerments by a long shot before youâd ever be low enough on AP to where you had to hard cast normal builders for Starsurge/Fall. But this is entirely speculative based on memory of a whole whopping 6 combined hours of Balance play from 5-6 years ago
Given the new hero talents, they could just make the Eluneâs Chosen work this way, since there is the option to only have lunar eclipse. Just make it so you donât have to use wrath to trigger the eclipse when you spec for that and then both preferences are covered.
Also someone in another topic brought up that going Chosen of Elune, just effectively disables the eclipse system. So we had one eclipse system from cata through WoD (with some changes), and now for 2 expansions this one. So that means only really half of expansions had a proper eclipse system. And no I very specifically donât Empowerments, and next expansion we will only have half an eclipse system.
With Chosen you still need to use two Wraths to go back into Lunar, you just canât go into Solar accidentally as it becomes disabled. Would be better if Starfire sends you back to Lunar, or if you just stayed in Lunar and the talent buffs reset every 15s.
Although I would prefer the OPs suggestion, which would work for both hero specs.
I think the SL and onward version of eclipse is just kinda broken at its core.
When it comes to power if you do the first cycle like in SL, itâs really hard to balance, cause it needs to be strong enough to make it actually feel worth it to cast the corresponding spell during it. As shown by the part of SL where eclipse bonus wasnât good enough to justify Starfire in ST. But it canât be too strong because of the dual bonus Starsurge and Starfall get from it during CA/Incarn. In that case to balance it against everything else, the spec will just feel like a wet noodle outside that window. That is unless you nerf those spenders, which will then feel disappointing to cast too.
Then to try to resolve that they gave us the option to essentially always be in the right eclipse. But that makes it feel boring and clunky, where youâre spamming the one spell until you need to reactivate the eclipse.
Also the putting up the right eclipse, combined with spreading moonfire, makes our AoE set up take very long. On longer fights like a council boss, or high M+ thatâs not so much an issue. But on lower keys or add phases in boss fights (e.g. Igiraâs spears, Fyrakk adds, etc.) this really sucks. Especially when you have a bunch of DPS that can just do burst AoE damage on command.
Empowerments were buffed builders coming from spenders. Spenders buffed both wrath and starfire.
Eclipse from wrath was Wrath giving you buff window to Starfire, and Starfire giving you a buff window to WrathsâŚjust like the current eclipse. Not even remotely close to empowerments lol. Talk about a stretch.
You did use Starfire on ST with Lunar Eclipse in SLâŚ
The speed bonus and extra AP generated from Starfire made you use it.
The problem with SL is that your builders didnât hit for anything. All the power was in the spenders, so it didnât really matter much. It was about generating as much AP as possible. Which was hitting Solar Eclipse, firing off 3 Starsurges back to back asap, and then Starfire.
They didnât do that to resolve any issue. They did it to appease the Balance druid crowd that cried for it. And it being âboring and clunkyâ is exactly what people are arguing FOR, nowâŚagain.
Spears, yes. In those situations you run strictly single target abilities and ignore spears.
Screaming SoulsâŚno. Getting set up doesnât take too long. As a ranged toon that specializes is spread cleave fights itâs not too bad. The culprit on this one lays with Starfall. A single Starfall doesnât do much damage
Not the entirety. There was a time when Wrath was the better cast even in Lunar.
Yeah, okay, I didnât know their strict reason why. Canât recall them ever mentioning it. But itâs still the way to resolve the issues mentioned. Plus this is contradictory. If there was no issue with Eclipse people wouldnât have âcriedâ for a change.
The arguments I see are for either just boring (i.e. wrath building wrath empower and starfire buffing starfire) which I agree is bad and honestly just a useless mechanic. I donât see anyone arguing for a system as or more clunky than the current, or Chosen of Elune.
Also;
Wrath and Starfire also had a chance to cause the other to empowerment. Starsurge guaranteed one stack of both. I think one of the buffs CA gave, was that they would guarantee empowerment.
Under the effects of CA on <3-4 targets (kind of like now)
Not liking something doesnât mean thereâs an issue with it. I donât think thereâs anything wrong with Mages fundamentally, but I dislike the class.
Itâs the requirements for a buff window. No one has to follow the rules. If you want to cast Wraths nonstop in single target, go ahead and do so. Just donât pay attention to Eclipse states. Problem fixed.
Ah yeah thatâs what it was. Had like a 20% chance or something to add a stack of the opposite empowerment.
But even with empowerments, we still see core concept of buffing the other side. /shrug
I donât think itâs unreasonable to ask for it to go away. Just because blizzard has failed to design eclipse as a fun mechanic for 8 expansions in a row doesnât mean players should just accept it and move along. It can still be made better. And again, the current system is clunky but itâs still better than the previous version which was also clunky. So I donât think itâs fair to imply that players wanted a clunky system just because they wanted the system to be less clunky than it was.
This is exactly what the players asked for. Their inability to think beyond âthis exact momentâ and not understanding what it is theyâre asking to change because they refuse to listen and understand why something works the way it does is their own downfall.
Is the eclipse system perfect? No absolutely not. But itâs a unique mechanic to the class/spec. Taking it away would make Balance very uninspired and extremely boring to play.
Also: not liking/understanding something != clunky. Shadowlands version wasnât clunky at all. People were just unable to wrap their minds around casting an AoE ability in ST and cried to make it what it is nowâŚwhich is clunky by having to stop what youâre doing and cast out of sequence spells to maintain Eclipse state.
Iâm sure some players didnât understand it but I wouldnât so broadly claim that players didnât understand something when in reality a lot of players just didnât think it was fun.
I loved BFA empowerments. They didnât force you to cast any certain spell at any time, but they did incentivize you to rotate between your two builders and spenders to not lose damage. I think the only issue some players had with empowerments was that it was âtoo simpleâ but I would gladly take that over any iteration of eclipse.
No, true but if they changed fire mage to no longer have ignite, and then the fire mage went like âHey blizz what you doing?â Thereâs an issue with fire mage.
I donât know how that follows to the part you quoted. So let me rephrase what I meant; The argument from others for a boring just spam Wrath, and every so often Wrath is weaker. (Which is what Wrath activating solar would be) I think is bad and I would not want to see either.
And I am not against that inherently. I also donât consider Empowerments an Eclipse system. I think Empowerments can work well pretty easily, but Eclipse, with the way the game currently is, not as much. Maybe if they did made Eclipse have the effects of BFA Empowerments, so making Wrath good in AoE, and putting way more haste on Starfire from Eclipse.
Though that does come with the slight issue that the spells will become closer to just being a recolour of each other.
Yup, 100%. BFA empowerments with Streaking Stars I felt was the better way to entice players into rotating spells rather than just having one spell.
Iâve seen this mentioned a few times now and agree.
The OG post was about if they cannot do anything else bc they are so stuck on its current iteration, at leastâŚ:
With the emphasis on being stuck on this system.
However, Iâd like to see them rebuild it considering newer ways of gameplay that have developed and reworks to specs that have been successful while considering the two hero talents when doing so (of course with Keeper of the Grove addressed first).
We will never all agree, but the post has gone more the way of just reflecting on what was and hoping for some positive change THAN anyone thinking they actually have the answer.
SO, for fun, if you all (Grizzle, Lenitas, Antaris, and others) could suggest any concept, what would you suggest?
Iâll contemplate it more deeply and respond myself when I get to my computer.
It wasnt the âfunâ factor they complained about. They said casting AoE in ST and vice versa was âclunkyâ and then said âlet us choose which Eclipse we enterâ. Which is what weâve got now.
The result of not knowing what youâre asking for because you dont understand the system. And now, while i have no issues with it personally, its twice as clunky as its predecessor.
They absolutely did. Overcapping empowerments was a no-no. As such, even in ST when youre building AP and earned/had stacks of Lunar Empowerment youâd burn your Starfires. Likewise, in AoE when youâre building AP with Starfires and got a stack of Lunar Empowerment, you didnt ignore it and used it.
Sure you could ignore them and stack them. But its absolutely no different than ignoring your current eclipse state and casting whatever spell fits your scenario either.
Is this what weâre wanting? Rotating spells in as opposed to having buff windows? Either way doesnt matter much to me. But im afraid youâll end up with the same complaints of âforcing me to use ST in AoE and vice versa to be optimal which feels badâ.
Wonder what the outcome would be if they made Eclipse a capstone talent that operates like it does now more or less with the tradeoff being that its 15% stronger than NOT having it.
That way you can opt out of it and dont have to deal with it, but youâre weaker for it. Which isnt an unheard of concept. In the past, the more active abilities had higher output in comparison to the passive
This would also allow the devs to make the system the way they see fit. You can choose to not take it but with the caveat of being weaker
I used rotating spells to mean any system thatâs used to with the intention for balance druids to use both Wrath and Starfire as builders in both ST and AoE. So I would also consider Eclipse rotating spells. Which I think is fine as long as they make both spells feel well in ST and AoE. Which the current Eclipse system doesnât but Empowerments got at least closer to. Though that might just be because of the specific effects (high haste boost on Starfire and splash damage from Wrath). But also, yes, Iâd prefer to swap every other spell than to have 15s buff windows.
I think someone earlier in this thread already brought up a response to that, let me see. Ah, yes;
Except there would also be the addition of âAh I have to waste talents on this bad system.â
This will never happen as builders arent packed with damage. Across any classes honestly (Fury Warriors may get a pass during S3). Theyâre mainly means for building AP.
This would require taking damage out of spenders and putting them in to builders. Which will create a new problem altogether.
Except its not forced. The perk to it being a talent, an option. Youâre choosing that playstyle