Except that’s what it already is, spamming the same builder aside for the reset every ~15-20s where you cast two of the opposite eclipse builders to go back into the form you actually want. Hardly challenging gameplay, just more annoying and unnecessary than anything.
It is also really counter-intuitive from a core gameplay stance, you waste your time casting two pathetic single target attacks to go into AoE damage mode? Or two long casting AoE attacks to start focusing single target? It’s silly, and just a tenuous link to the old Eclipse system where you bounced from one to the other.
The OPs idea is a much more reasonable solution. I would go a step further and say if you are in one Eclipse, casting the opposite two spenders should force you into the other Eclipse early. To allow for quicker shifting into AoE when adds spawn / join.
No other class has this level of time gating for swapping between single target and AoE when cooldowns aren’t available.
No one said it was challenging. And youre right, having to break cast sequence to cast the opposite builder 2x is annoying and unnecessary. But this is what the player base wanted. And its also why i prefered SLs version
Exactly. Shadowlands version prevented that.
And as discussed, would turn it into a 2 button spec.
Lolwutm8??
This would be a valid argument if Wrath and Srarfire did any meaningful damage. But they dont. It would also be a meaningful argument if Starsure and Starfall were looked into separare Eclipses. But theyre not.
Most of your damage comes from your AP spenders. Making it a non-issue, so long as you’re in an eclipse. Wrath and Starfire are simply there to enter an eclipse and build AP. The sooner thats understood and come to terms with, the sooner you realize how insignificant this whole “how we should enter eclipses” discussion is.
Because your damage comes from Starsurge and Starfall. And they dont care which eclipse youre in. Just be in one and have the AP for it.
I hear what all you’re saying, Grizzle, but I’d have to disagree because (and with the caveat that it is a proposed solution only if they are DEAD set on keeping the eclipse that’d I’d rather see go away completely):
It would not just be two buttons, just more intuitive opening and transitional rotation. It would not stop us from using starfall, starsurge, moons/fury, shrooms and stellar flare if specced (as well as all the other utility and shifting we do). Additionally, our rotation will already see some variation with the hero talents.
The whole point of my OG post was that the core rotation system of Balance is already crappy so it needs addressing before addressing the spec tree and ESP. before finalizing the hero talents. I’m a teacher by profession so it was an attempt to give them an easy solution because I know how stubborn people can be with feedback.
Well the one thing you have to realize, is that the eclipse system isnt centered around entering combat every 15 seconds. It was about the transitions while in combat.
So on, lets say, an 8 minute boss fight, the only clunky part was the opener where you entered for your first Eclipse state. So a whole whopping 3 seconds. .6% of an 8 minute encounter. The rest was smooth as the eclipses transitioned seamlessly and without thought or effort (casting Starfires in Lunar Eclipse was what brought you to Solar eclipse when time ran out. No awkward stop to cast the opposite builder).
As far as feedback goes, what we have here in DF is a direct response to players feeback of wanting to choose which Eclipse they enter instead of the forced transitioning.
I dont think the devs will ever go for the OP suggestion. And not because it’s “bad” (although i dislike it personally), but because it goes against the fundamentals of the Eclipse system as a whole. You have to understand the system at its foundation.
Solar Eclipse does what? Enhances nature spells. Which are what? Wrath and Sunfire. One single target and one AoE.
Lunar Eclipse empowers Arcane spells: Starfire and Moonfire. One single target and one AoE
So the eclipse system isnt about ST phase or AoE phase, its about …hold on to something, i dont think youre ready for this lol…BALANCE. And the transition (well what WAS the transition) from day to night and back to day. lol im not insulting your intelligence or anything of the sort, im just genuinely amused at the irony thats associated with things hidden in plain sight.
So for the same reasons i enjoyed SLs iteration of Eclipses, is why i also think the devs arent going to relinquish the system and go with your suggestion
Hiding in plain sight is also the fact that most of us agree it’s just not a fun or rewarding gameplay system. The “balance” theme and fantasy can be achieved in other ways. As mentioned, we can agree to disagree. If you want to try to condescend though, own it, boo, don’t half-heartedly backpeddle it.
Except the spec was called balance before the sun trash was thrown in back in Warlords of Draenor. It was about balance in nature, not about balancing the sun and the moon. Lots of folks would rather they ditch the sun stuff altogether and go back to just nature and lunar. Since that isn’t on the cards now, the above option seems the least annoying way to implement the eclipses.
It has nothing to do with being condescending or not. Every time this subject comes up i always just spell it out because in SL i had a few people who tried understanding the spec based off of just a rotation guide without understanding the “why” of it all
Have any ideas or examples you’d like to share? I enjoy the eclipse system because it’s unique and different. Take it away and youre a nature themed mage.
Giving you the energy you deserve. Youve given no real reason why casting two wraths is important to trigger a lunar eclipse. If anything it makes more sense from a lore perspective if the lunar spells summon a lunar eclipse and solar spells summon a solar eclipse. The system is a relic of the formerly ill concieved yo-yo mechanic.
I’ve already explained it…like a hundred times in the past 2 weeks lol
From an in-combat stand point, when this system was introduced in Shadowlands, you HAD to go back and for between Eclipses.
So once you started combat and got into your Eclipses, you would cast Wrath while in Solar. To transition into Lunar, you kept casting Wrath. And vice versa. Once in Lunar, you switched to casting Starfire. Once eclipse ran out, you had to go back into Solar, which was to continue to keep casting the same spell you’ve been casting (Starfire) and it seamlessly transitioned between Eclipses without thought or changing what you were already doing. It was a smooth system.
What we have now, is a granted request from the player base. Getting to choose which eclipse you enter at the end of the previous one. They kept the system, the playerbase just made it clunky by constantly needing to be in one or the other instead of alternating.
Do you understand how Eclipses happen? It’s an effect of the OPPOSITE unit affecting it. A Solar eclipse is when the MOON gets in the way.
Regardless, the opposite builders putting you into the correct eclipse was so you didn’t lose the flow. It was straight Wraths until you switched, or straight Starfires. None of this wraths, then 2 starfires, then starfires until we need 2 wraths. This is the result of the player base making a request because they didn’t care to understand how the system worked.
Now I have terrible memory so maybe I miss remember, but wasn’t there a point in SL that you kept casting Wrath in Lunar for ST? I think it had something to do with AP generation. So even with that forced rotation if tuning isn’t right things might still go whacky. Additionally, any time I cast wrath in an AoE situation I just get sad. At least Starfire has some priority damage to work in ST. Back in BFA with empowerments at least Wrath gained an AoE component…
Also, as an aside, I can’t be the only one who gets confused by the idea that when you’re in solar eclipse, i.e. there being no sun, your spell that’s sun themed gets more powerful. And when there’s no moonlight, so lunar eclipse, your star/moon spells get more powerful. Feels kinda counter? But well that has nothing to do with how the gameplay feels.
Hold on! This is not what the player base wanted. They preferred this to the previous version yes, but it’s not like the eclipse system was ever widely liked. It’s a crummy system forced on balance since the dawn of time.
I’m not 100%. During Incarn you wanted Wrath at like <3-4 targets, and during Solar Eclipse there was a point where X amount of mobs you wanted to cast Starfire (i’m not 100% sure what that cut off was).
But the difference in dps was minimal compared to sticking to your chosen eclipse state spells, as yes, it was simply about generating AP. The correlated spells casted faster and hit harder and thus generated more AP.
Precisely. The eclipse system is what makes Balance Druids, Balance Druids. Given that, it’s unreasonable to ask for it to go away. As such, the clunkiness of entering eclipse systems as it stands in DF is the result of what the players wanted.
We didn’t have it prior to WOTLK, so to argue it’s OG druid is also inaccurate.
To answer your other question, regarding what I suggest. One thing that is nice is the current SoD iteration:
“Starfire increases the critical strike chance of your next two Wraths by 30%, and Wrath reduces the cast time of your next Starfire by 1.0 sec, both effects stacking up to 4 charges. Both spells also gain 70% chance at all times to not lose casting time when you take damage.”
Even something like this is a thousand times better for me personally and in my last post about this, others agreed, too.
Basically, it maintains the “balance” and makes it meaningful to alternate spells at times but instead just buffs them in meaningful ways.
One could also think of components of empowerments here as well, like starfall activating wrath’s aoe (like bfa empowerments if I’m not mistaken) or starsurge a single target enhancement for starfire, for example.
So you would have some dots and the first two starfires of an aoe pull in M+, let’s say, from warrior of elune or dreamstate to get the aoe encounter started strong. Starfall once or twice to get empowered aoe wraths and then after two aoe wraths you can starfire again because wrath made them faster. That type of thing. It’s not to say this is perfect but I’d already be way more into this. Just spit ballin’.
In my previous post, I had given some scenarios; here they are:
But ultimately, you wouldn’t just be hitting those two buttons like in classic and it couldn’t be a two button rotation because there is more going on; instead, they could empower other abilties since we are seeing a lot of X empower Y on the hero talents and updated trees now anyway.
It depends a lot on what they do with everything until TWW but again, but along with the hero talents, there could be some interesting rotation implications.
I didn’t make this claim. But Eclipse system has been with Balance Druid for the majority of it’s existence, much like how Holy Power for Paladins is now a defining thing for them.
But we’ve already had things similar to that with Eclipse system in the past. SL’s version reduced cast time and increased damage done to corresponding spells. It’s much more efficient than SoD’s iteration.
The biggest complaint was casting AoE in ST and ST in AoE felt bad. What do you think you’re doing when you’re casting Starfire in ST to get your Wrath buffs? It’s no different.
It’s not that. It’s just these things aren’t new concepts or ideas. We’ve had them before and said no to it.
To each their own (many liked the simplicity of BFA empowerments for example). Doesn’t matter how many layers of paint you put on a turd, it’s still a turd lol
Not true. The eclipse system didn’t exist for 10 years from launch until Warlords. Then went away for Legion where they had empowerments instead, then was brought back for BFA. So really it has only been in the worst expansions, and only for 40% of the time that WoW has existed. So no, it isn’t what defines Balance druids, it was hamfisted in during one of the worst expansions and they really want to make it work despite poor feedback on most iterations of it.
