Oh for sure, without the things like ET or caltrops or dragonsfire grenade, BM could very much be made a melee spec. That’s kind of the point though, nothing in the class (aside from MM) has to be ranged.
Nothing about Beast Mastery screams “ranged weaponry” to me
Right, but —tangent— by the same token, the mechanics that compose MSV could be wholly ranged… so long as they came with accordant/replacing challenge. The only mechanic that really screams “this fights interestingly with its confines” is Mongoose Bite’s ramp-up/window, in the same way that, say, Arcane Blast would if it increased in cast time with Arcane Charge count as it increases exponentially in MP cost and potency (so that you’d occasionally want to purge it, for reasons beyond just MP sustain or the mobility of Arcane Barrage itself).
I just don’t see why technique/munitions or beast-use/beast-ly-ness would necessarily go one way or the other. Just give some (typically utility-esque) rewards for going/attacking from melee that aren’t typically worth it (i.e., worth hanging out in melee or impinging one’s ability to take distant mechanics over) without some building specifically for mechanics that also make doing so more tactical and deliberate and therefore more interesting despite/in being harder to optimize (making something thematic out of what would otherwise be eclectic min-maxing).
Sure, I don’t think anyone’s contested that. Just that there wouldn’t be a ranged spec in the game with instant cast abilities with no cooldown that would work with a self-stacking buff with an entirely dynamic focus economy.
Oh, for sure, hence the “tangent” note, haha. I just mean that you can support ranged and melee play within a single spec, as apart from sniping/shanking, specifically (which one can just put at opposite ends of an especially wide tree), technique/know-how/resourcefulness and beast-use/beastliness aren’t going to care whether one sacrifices mobility/utility for range (sometimes to greater relative mobility/utility) or range for mobility/utility (sometimes to greater effective mobility/utility).
SV fanatics are slacking by allowing this thread through without a crusade of downvotes and white-knighting.
8 years and still whining like a toddler. Never ceases to amaze.
not everyone acts like you on the internet lmao. “someones enjoying something I’m not?! this cannot stand!!”
I wonder who is doing the downvoting, crusades and white-knighting here? The irony.
To be honest, to call Beppels a toddler is a insult to the toddlers.
He is probably going to downvote/report this like he does everything else. If only he could see the irony in that 
While I’ll agree that MM has a sufficient spec fantasy, why would you quote a statistic that clearly shows that, despite having less than 5% the representation of BM, MM does more damage than BM (halfway nearer the top performer) to try to claim that MM’s low representation is due only to tuning (said tuning there being significantly better than BM’s)?
One can have liked one of the better things 2010 had to offer and still prefer any of several hundred options added since.
And the white-knighting clearly isn’t limited to just extant specs/builds/playstyles. The class forums have shown time and time again that players are willing to break and remove their own arm to shank people with it in defense of their sites of nostalgia, whether it be…
If the Fantasy of the specc is there (and it seems we both agree on that more or less), and the damage of the specc is there (at least between the most skilled players) and the specc still suffer from incredibly low representation (SV Hunter and AF Warlock on the same boat representation wise) that means that the playstyle of the Specc is not good enough, or isnt attractive enough for people who love the class, to play it.
So when i say “MM can be saved cuz it needs tunning” im manking a reference (that i thought it was clear) to those aspects that could be fixed, not only damage wise, but also rotation wise, or even mechanical wise, that could add MM that punch that it needs to go back to be a more played Specc.
Devs need to look at the data and ask themselves “Why so few people play this specc, ifs its damage isnt bad, and that class fantasy is more or less there, why players arent enjoying this Specc we built?”
And we as players need to ask ourselves the same… cuz it doesnt matter if we like or we dislike an Specc within the class that we love to play, it doesnt matter if i like melee SV or i was BM to be super op with 1 button rotation forever (not implying it is tho).
What should matter is that whats happening right now to SV, MM and AF Warlock doesnt happen again…
Look at the Mage class (from the article previous shared), a pure dps Class, with 3 different specc, and while not all them are equal (representation and damage wise), their numbers look a lot more healthy than Hunters, players enjoy and embrace each specc and despite performance differences, people do play those 3 specc at high level end game.
Im not saying Mage class is perfect or that it doesnt need any improvement.
All im saying is that in our Class Forum, we should all work together to try to have a healthy class… and right now… We dont have a healthy class… and we wont have one.
tuning does not refer to gameplay or rotation, tuning is almost exclusively meaning number wise
That’s literally not tuning.
Those are full-fledged adjustments that can result in different performance, much like a change in tuning could, but by adjusting its damage profile to better fit extant contexts or its playstyle to provide more immediate/obvious gratification.
If I’m given the choice between a 95th percentile, a 96th percentile, and a 100th percentile worker, for instance, the questions shouldn’t be limited to “what’s so bad about this 95th percentile choice”. In many ways what kills MM and SV isn’t MM and SV, but simply BM offering (or, in mass-AoE, far better) as much at less effort and/or risk.
Im glad that the misunderstanding about the wrong use of the concept “tunning” from my part has been clarified.
And i hope the next time we face performance or representation data for our class on this game, we look a lot closer to the Mage Class, than what we are currently looking like.
2 out of our 3 speccs are doing incredibly bad, and for a class that doesnt need to deal with Healing or Tanking in its design, those numbers are pretty pretty sad.
something to consider is that mage and rogue both received mid expansion reworks in DF. these mid expansion reworks are proven to make specs better in almost every way.
it’s no coincidence most of the least played specs in the game (affi, mm, sv) are still using pre 10.0 talent trees
We often need to lock down distinct problems individually, though. Namely, gameplay vs. tuning, and attractiveness vs. mere relative popularity (context matters).
MM’s mass AoE (e.g., 7+ enemies) suffering numbers-wise, for instance, would be pretty simple issue to address, such as by just having Trick Shots diminish in damage after 4 additional targets struck instead of falling off completely after 5 additional targets struck. Or, MM AoE and SV AoE could be addressed simultaneously by affecting the target-soft-cap of Explosive Shot. Etc.
MM’s mass AoE being “annoying” to many, especially prior to DF S3 (2)-Set, though, would have more varied reactions to each potential solution. For instance, I personally wouldn’t much mind if —random examples, not suggestions— Rapid Fire just automatically AoEed, or if Aimed Shot could instead automatically pierce targets in a wide linear AoE instead of needing Trick Shots, but those would heretical to many others.
Heck, we aren’t even likely to agree on what’s annoying. I, for instance, find MM pretty much wholly manageable and pretty damn smooth, though having to manually Hunter’s Mark —especially via a GCD that doesn’t even grant Focus on kill or anything gameplay-palpable, nor as something one actually chooses to take— makes little sense to me*, and would prefer that Trick Shots would snapshot (if cast/channel started with it up, then it will affect the whole result/channel). Others apparently think it’s the second scourge of Azeroth. /shrug
My biggest issue with Survival is the identity of the spec and how mismatched it really is. I think most things can be reworked and numbers can be adjusted to patch things up, but the spec itself is just wrong. It’s just a Melee Hunter and that just feels like it’s a lesser version of a Hunter, especially if you know what Survival used to be prior.
The idea of running in to fight in melee with your pet is honestly more of a Beast Mastery idea. The biggest theme is the traps and bombs, but why are you setting up traps as a boss is trying to stab your face?
It’ll never happen, but if Blizz is this insistent on SV being Melee I think they should instead make it a hybrid of Melee/Ranged. In the sense that you have a burst window which requires you to be in melee ranged, using a melee weapon, and doing your rotation in melee. Outside of that you ‘Disengage’ and go back to ranged where you shoot and toss traps and bombs until you build to your next burst window.
The burst window would basically toggle which weapon you use, and your stats are determined by which weapon you have active(to prevent from SV Hunters getting extra stats from 2 weapons).
To me it gives the class an actual theme of using every tactic to win. Keeping at range and setting up your advantages before finally going into melee for a kill when it’s safe and you’ve prepared for victory.
But really it allows for use of the old SV talents, abilities and rotation(tweaked obviously) while not completely removing Melee from the spec and actually giving it a purpose.
I don’t think you understand what the current spec is or does if you think traps are the biggest theme lol
with how many different mechanics there are in wow this just wouldn’t work. what happens if you’re classified as a melee for boss mechanics and you lose your actual damage window because you can’t get to the boss? what if you’re classified as ranged for mechanics and you just physically can’t use your damage window because you have a swirly on your head you have to move far away from everyone from?
if you do no damage as ranged, why even bother frankensteining a ranged kit on top of an existing kit?
you can allow for this by putting the 3 talents/abilities people remember on to MM 
I don’t think anyone understands it or cares for it. I’m talking about what Survival was to a lot of us. It was the spec that used traps and explosive shots. What it is now it just an aberration of what it should be.
As far as mechanics of boss fights it’s a lot more simple than you’re making it out to be. Classify the character as “Melee” as their ranged rotation would still work in melee. However, the class has the freedom to work outside of the melee range. This also means it has the advantage on fights where Melee is unable to physically interact with a boss.
And this last one was answered already. New SV is a new idea that is deeply unpopular and resented by most players, including those who don’t play the class. MM is a classic spec with a classic theme to it that is deeply popular to the point that some refuse to switch off it even when BM does superior numbers. Changing MM to make it “Old SV-lite” is actually just stupid. The issue is one deeply unpopular spec with a theme that isn’t clear and isn’t liked. Leaving that the exact same and altering a spec people do enjoy, while on brand for Blizz, again is incredibly stupid.
…
All that said it’s pretty obvious you’re being incredibly dismissive and I think you’d be able to come up with actual flaws if you put more thought into it.
No, you specifically said “the biggest theme is the traps and bombs” and you specifically said “Why are you setting up traps as a boss is trying to stab your face?” That has nothing to do with current SV. You can’t call me dismissive just because you got called out.
How can you say SV is deeply unpopular and resented but MM is a classic spec that is deeply popular when their player count is nearly identical lol. That doesn’t make any sense at all.
I didn’t have to put much thought at all into it because you don’t know or care to even think about current SV as made apparent when you think they use traps as a specialization theme