If you ask anything on discord, ask and check back in 20 minutes. Should have an answer by then, but will have to look for it among the sea of trolling, because “how can you not know something as simple as that x thing”
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I brought it up because I was explaining how bias doesn’t make a person automatically wrong. You’re the one that stretched it into nonsense territory.
Why would I want ranged SV to be mid range? I don’t believe in fake ranged specs.
Hmm, no, in every other case they actually take care to innovate while preserving what defines the class and they certainly had the existing audience in mind.
The only one that comes close to SV is what happened to Demonology in Legion, but in that case they still largely sought to keep the fabric of the class intact and that rework was still bad for a lot of the same reasons SV’s was.
Actually it was just a better state of the game. A lot more people played back then inb MoP and it’s still held up as the prime of class design by many.
Wow, and SV has all the same things working against it on top of being an arbitrarily handicapped Hunter. Top tier class design right here, folks.
If the past doesn’t matter then what’s the backing for the argument that MM needs to be as comparatively strong now as SV was in late Shadowlands to see any play? It works both ways.
To get played more than BM, it needs to do more than BM. That much is true.
It does not need to be significantly better than BM at everything in order to see decent representation.
This is deflection again. What I said was that if people didn’t like ranged weapon specs then SV would be more played.
MM as pressing issues that make it less played than BM. Earlier in this very expansion it didn’t have those issues so it saw a lot of play. So it’s clearly not the ranged weapons that people have a problem with.
This is a microcosm of your issues when it comes to debates. You can only focus on one thing at a time and you forget other factors, either subconsciously or deliberately.
And before they made SV melee they talked about how they wanted to focus Hunter’s identity as a ranged class. Things can change and their word is never final.
So is the argument that I’m the only one who ever asked for ranged SV back?
And yet somehow the melee/ranged distinction is an issue for Hunters while the school distinction is not an issue for Mages.
So evidently you got something wrong in your series of assumptions.
When deciding on what best represents the concept of a Hunter, they chose a ranged weapon.
That does mean a lot.
Not as broken as SV in Sepulcher.
This is still just as delusional every time you tell it, by the way.
As low as Survival’s representation is compared to the rest of the game, it still has a number of people playing it in the tens of thousands.
This thread is the most viewed one on the Hunter forums in the past few months and it has a grand total of 3.7k views; many of which are necessarily repeats.
You must be innumerate if you think anything that’s said here has a bearing on Survival’s representation in game. You like to pretend you have a good grasp on PR and marketing when in reality you have none at all.
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Your bias isn’t about a right or wrong, it’s about you derailing every thread possible with your bias and you being unwilling to consider other people’s opinions and viewpoints—nothing outside of your own hyper specific opinion is “right” to you.
People hardly feel comfortable saying they like the spec because they’re concerned you’re just going to bust in the door and cry.
Sucks for you then because they’re clearly not interested in adding fully mobile fully ranged specs lol
Except there are people just like you for every spec that can’t let go of the past and insist “actually X spec was better from when I was a kid and Blizzard is insulting me personally by not reverting it”. You are not unique and SV isn’t the only reworked spec in the game.
Completely unrelated and you know it lol. There were less games, there was less social media, there was less options to play MMOs. It’s a niche genre nowadays. You could say “Well Obama being president of the USA clearly was better for world of warcraft as you can see by how good the game was back then.”
Sounds like your problem should be with the class itself and the way the game is designed as a whole if you think melee is a handicap
The argument is that MM needs to be far stronger than BM to be played now, which is true.
Well the damage is very comparable now and it’s representation is far from decent by your own metric.
Isn’t this what you do? lol?
Bepples: “SV has bad representation because people don’t like melee fantasies on Hunter”
Bepples: “Actually, MM has bad representation because of things that can also apply to SV but I will go on and on about how SV is the worst spec in the game but also sees preferential treatment. MM is fine. Do not talk about MM. MM’s representation has nothing to do with class fantasy reasons because then I would have to admit my entire reason for existence is wrong. My arguments exist in a vacuum.”
Desperately clinging on to something that won’t change. If you are OK with believing this then surely you should be just as excited for 4th spec to be added to Hunter instead of crying 24/7. No reason to believe they won’t add it, right?
No the argument is that saying that people played SV before me and would like to see the spec they played when they were a teenager is 1) irrelevant 2) pointless 3) doesn’t matter to anyone but rose tinted whiners like yourself
Maybe Mage players don’t have the specific type of hyper bitter grudges like you do? You’re probably one of the only people that freak out about a specific definition of “Core identity”
To you
So there’s a sliding scale of acceptable brokenness to you? When MM is broken to see play, it is fine; when SV is broken, it is not fine.
This is nothing about marketing. It’s the fact of your absolution to take every Survival Hunter post, and make it into Bepples is right and you are wrong rant. The very fact that as soon as there is a post related to survival and someone only responds by “just waiting for Bepples” shows that you are the most entertaining part about the spec.
You still refuse to believe that you have been more of a spokes model for MSV than anyone. Their is no other poster that has been more connected to its reputation than you.
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I don’t listen to incorrect opinions.
Nice!
They also had heavily restricted ranged specs from the start of the game until later they didn’t.
And yet it’s SV that becomes the perpetual pariah of class design; something that none of your desperate false equivalencies account for…
We’re talking about 2013 lol. FF14 was already out by then and both the game and the broader internet much better resembled today than 10 years earlier.
When the baseline is being a fully capable ranged DPS, not being that is a handicap. Inherent fact.
And historically this hasn’t been true, which means you’re basing this on literally one ongoing season.
Waht does SV need to be played?
It still has a number of key disadvantages, especially in a M+ season full of large bloodlust trash pulls for a spec that a) has an AoE hardcap, which BM doesnt, and b) has a significant bloodlust DPS penalty, which BM doesn’t.
Nope.
SV does not have a bloodlust penalty or hardcapped AoE, and its performance is very good.
4th spec is significantly more far-fetched than any other suggestion. Especially a formerly ranged spec in a ranged class becoming ranged again after years of dismal reception as a melee spec.
All I’m hearing is “only my preferences matter”, which is a level of entitlement and self-importance typical of SV Hunters.
This is what happens when you get given other people’s spec *shrug*
Or maybe it was yet another false equivalence from you?
So why do you think they picked a ranged weapon?
No, it’s not good when any spec is broken, be it BM in Nyalotha, MM in Nathria, or SV in Sepulcher.
The difference is both BM and MM have seen good representation while not being so overpowered.
Since you opted to just talk past me and repeat the same lazy and delusional talking point, I’ll just copy-paste what I posted before:
You must be innumerate if you think anything that’s said here has a bearing on Survival’s representation in game. You like to pretend you have a good grasp on PR and marketing when in reality you have none at all.
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Classic Bepple’s response deflection.
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If it does get reworked it would likely be because survival has been the least played spec since legion, less than angry people on forums.
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Ion after Legion made it clear in an interview where he said the following:
Question: The Hunter community is still split on the issue of the melee spec even two expansions after its introduction. With your new stance of “class over spec” and more ranged abilities returning to the class, what does it mean for Survival in the long term?
Ion Hazzikostas:
That’s a good question. I think part of what led Survival to a melee space to begin with was trying to differentiate Survival from Marksmanship. The rotations over the years had become very very similar — OK you might have a couple more magical-seeming shots in the Survival space. Beast Mastery was very clearly its own thing with its clear niche as the pet-based spec. But then you had these two ranged specs that basically did a lot of ranged shots in their rotation.
Some of that is actually fallout from the shift that we did in Cataclysm going into Mists. We moved from the old-school talent trees that could probably better support types of play styles and utility without having to build a whole spec around them. Having a tree like Survival that was about traps and utility and a little bit of melee stuff in there — that worked when it was something that you could put points into as a broader class initiative. But then turning it into its own spec ultimately led us down a path of duplicating a lot of Mark’s abilities.
We want to keep melee as part of the unique identity of Survival but in Shadowlands and beyond, as we start to think about what classes should look like in future expansions, it’s important that there will be this sort of universal base of what defines a Hunter. All Hunters should have access to ranged attacks and Survival Hunters can be ones that specialize in melee but not necessarily at the expense of the universal skillset that everyone had as a level 5 or level 10 Hunter because that’s what being the class means
I’m okay with that
Even with its low numbers Blizzard’s designers are keeping melee as a core of Survival Hunters and even with the addition of more range capabilities it will not be come what it was before Legion.
Bepples can keeping on with their Crusade as long as they like, but Blizzard is the ones who hold all the power on where they want to take Survival.
When did he say this? During legion? That was like nearly 10 years ago.
Im sure they wont change survival from being able to melee but i wouldnt be surprised at a major rework if hunter was ever to get one.
That’s 10 years of the one rework after Legion then Survival has had very little else done. It has been the least played spec, but still has not had another redesign.
This either leads to Blizzard has just abandoned Survival cause it not popular, or they think its core design is perfect and if you don’t like it too bad.
However, one angry poster on the forums will not have the power to make Blizzard change their choices, nor will it cause another radical redesign to Survival.
Ion’s interview showed that they are aware that sometimes they make choices that are not met with praise. However, they think they are doing what is best for the game, and are completely okay if you are not happy.
You’re proving me right
You’re proving me right
Yeah keep dreaming I’m sure any day now they’ll add a fully mobile ranged spec lol. Just ignore the fact that the only ranged spec they’ve ever added had both 25y and hard cast times. Delusional.
I like how you cry it’s both the perpetual pariah and receives constant preferential treatment. which is it?
fortnite didn’t come out till 2017 and lobby based games (league, etc) were just starting to get popular. mmos are a niche genre in 2024. most gamers nowadays do not want to spend all the time necessary to invest in a character nor do they want to schedule their gaming time around activities with a hard time frame (raids, etc) they want to jump in when they want and play for random intervals of time. trying to tie sv’s class design to the game’s population is insanity
you know there are non ranged dps in the game right? there is no “baseline” lol. if you feel mdps is a handicap, it is a problem with the game itself
pretty sure since bfa BM is historically played much more than MM, so yes it is true
sounds to me like MM is the handicap here on hunter specs. can’t lust, can’t AoE, squishier than both other specs…
Proving my point that your bias and ego make you uninterested in any real discussion. I’m sure if you keep arguing like the way you do any day now you’ll get what you want
Ah, so it’s not a poorly designed spec.
Well no, it’s just as far fetched as them entirely reworking SV to be the ranged mobile dot spec of your dreams.
are you listening to yourself when you hear this?
“listen just because my example applies directly to every other spec in the game, I don’t like it, so I will say it’s a false equivalence or deflection”
probably because each of the specs can use a ranged weapon? why do you think a sword is the quintessential dps icon? does a sword represent DPS better to you than a bow?
that’s not what I’m saying, I’m saying MM only sees better representation than BM when it’s OP
there have been several specs with less players than survival though? even right now it’s not the least played spec. a ranged dot spec is 
just last month he said “we aren’t reworking any spec from the role it is currently”
That isnt true though, if you go back to legion and you figure out from all patches what is the least played its survival. Sure one spec might dip down below it from patch to patch but overall its survival.
Role is DPS, they are saying they wont turn DPS specs to healer specs ie they wont change roles. It doesnt mean they wont rework specs ever again
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You said “Survival has been the least played spec in the game since Legion” which isn’t true. All Dragonflight here have been less played specs.
No, they were saying that “Enhancement players don’t have to worry about turning into Support, as people play Enhancement because they like melee DPS. We won’t be changing a spec’s role from what it is currently as that spec’s player base plays it for a specific reason”
Support is still DPS. Why would they classify “melee DPS” in the same thought as “we won’t change roles”? Sorry friend, but the rework isn’t happening lol
When i said least played spec im not just talking about dragonflight i am talking about ever since it was reworked in legion on average. Also MM hunter spec and design wise is in the worst state its ever been so i am not surprised people are not playing it in DF.
Doesnt mean they wont give it the option to use range over melee. They are talking about roles in your comment on a question around specs changing from dps to support like AUG. We are talking about range\melee dps here.
so when you say “least played spec in the game since legion” what you meant was “if you ignore this expansion and half the last expansion” or “if you ignore the thing that proves me wrong and only look at the data that proves me right”
they specifically listed melee DPS as enhancement’s role. why would they qualify it as “melee” if the subject is “support vs dps”? not to mention support IS dps. the role doesn’t change at all lol
Because he is just talking in a interview and not every single word should be analyzed, i would be surprised if survival stayed melee.
Yes if you ignore dragonflight the expansion with the least amount of players participating in content than ever before in wows history on average its the least played spec. If MM ever gets a rework i would expect to see survivals numbers in the toliet again, MM is just so bad that this is what happens.
Right, so if we ignore what proves you wrong and only look at what proves you right, sounds like a fair discussion 
Again…if we ignore what you don’t want to hear you have a fair point, but you can’t do that lol. Otherwise we might as well assume MM turns into a healer and BM turns into a tank if we’re just saying things that could happen.
What proves me wrong exactly? my statement is that not alot of people play retail anymore in comparison. On top of that MM is in the worst state its ever been in design wise.
So just using dragonflight as a way to gage how well survival is received is prob not a good idea. Which is why using the average over at least the last couple of expansions make way more sense.
Even right now survival is pretty low participation in Mplus, 2nd to last just above sub rogue/afflic locks its been low for 10 years less than a 1% popularity sometimes it even drops below 0.1%. Unlike those specs. Go onto any reddit thread asking about least played spec and you can find the data you want to state survival hunter is the least popular spec in the game, you are living in delusion if you think its not unpopular. I like Survival hunter i played it in shadowlands but lets not pretend they might not get an option for range at some point.
your statement was:
which is not true lol. now you’re saying “well dragonflight doesn’t count because it has less players than legion”.
why? you can’t just randomly pick and choose what era of the game’s population suddenly matters to you lol
you made a sweeping, generalized statement that was inaccurate. now you’re trying to say “well actually what proves me wrong doesn’t count.”
right if we ignore the fact that they said they wont change a spec’s role as they stated and if we ignore the fact that they’ve never added more than 1 mobile ranged dps spec to the game.
seems like it’s far more likely that they give MM (also a barely played spec that you yourself admit is not fun to play and is in the worst state it’s ever been) the 3 or 4 talents to make it play like rsv