I miss deterministic gearing. Bellular nails it

I’d agree with you, were it not for the fact that how a game feels to play not a gigantic part of game design.

Were developers not quite literally hiring behavioral psychologists to design compelling reward systems.


You can disagree all you want, but how a game system makes its players feel is important. It’s not a mere issue of ‘facts versus feelings’, as there are a lot of facts backing up the fact that how a player feels going into a game is valuable.

A reward system, in particular, should make the player feel rewarded - like they accomplished a thing and got a neat reward for it, no matter how minor. It doesn’t even have to be power-based, as many games have proven (even WoW to some extent) that players will be quite happy plugging away at a hard boss for cosmetics.


On that note, a little randomness is good - it keeps people coming back, and repeating content they mightn’t otherwise. Keeps those drops feeling special, out-of-reach without trivializing them completely…

… But when you introduce too much randomness, the sense of reward is replaced with that minor dopamine boost one gets from good luck. Going for a piece of gear is essentially replaced with the feeling you get when you find $10 under the couch cushions.

Both are good feelings, nobody with a brain would try and prove otherwise, but one is much less arbitrary than the other.

That’s the key issue: there’s so much RNG, that each individual drop is essentially meaningless. It’s more about what number you roll when it does drop. Will you get an item worth using, or just disenchant/scrap fodder? No way to tell!

tl;dr: A little randomness is good, and it does make the game more fun; currently there’s simply way, way too much.

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the whole reason this went away is because blizzard found that people stop raiding once they get their BiS pieces…

so they have to make an RNG heavy loot system to keep people playing.

Your argument falls apart when you introduce the whole “too much rng” aspect though. That’s just like, your opinion man.

“Feels bad because too much rng imo” tldr’d and /thread’d

Yeah because why would you continue to do content that can’t provide a reward for you? The game is fun, but it should always provide a means of progression. Ideally until the next tier of raiding is out so you’re never ever quite fully powerful unless you have god’s luck. That’s why we have corruption and titanforging. Why would you want to not have a reason to participate in the content?

edit: Oh I get it, it’s because most of you just like "/afk"ing in main city while looking special LOL. All about that weird flex but okay life.

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That made me want to play more on different classes. Since its all went away and alts are no longer as easy to play, I have found myself playing less and less to the point I may have been subbed for this expansion…1/3 of the time its been out? Something like that. Or less because the only reason I came back was for classic.

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So what about people that don’t like alts very much and just want to focus on their main?

How does the dead archaic system you are trying to revive benefit the type of hardcore raider that only likes playing their one char? They get to hold your hand while raiding for nothing while you gear up all your alts? Sounds fun.

I mean, if you were playing with a guild of people you know I doubt anything you just said would be an issue. If you were pugging, it would definitely not be an issue then. So…I am not seeing your concern.

I think that makes it all the more of an issue. It’s not a social game, it’s a game about character progression. It might not seem like an issue, but people easily lose touch with why they play the game when they are raiding just for their guildies. Especially when they watch their guildies gearing up alt after alt, it really devalues loot in general. It should be hard to have your alts on the same level as someone who only plays one character. Why do you want to take that away from your peers?

I dont know if you have raided with people before but…usually if you bring an alt that has been OK’d with the raid leader, it is usually known that mains come before alts. Now, because master loot isnt a thing anymore, none of that truly matters, sadly.

And if you are pugging, nobody gives a crap. If they invited you then why does it matter?

What you just said, as you noted, was a moot point. Master looter was a bad and weird system that enabled a lot of selfishness and greed. Too much political power for lack of a better word, given to players. It was creepy and cringey and there was nothing good about it.

Not sure how to respond to the second sentence, it’s not an issue that impacts pugs. I’ve never expressed it as such. It only effects people in guilds who would be committed enough to continue raiding, even though there is nothing in it for them. They participate because the guild is raiding, as a lot of people do want to gear up alts. You can still play alts now, they just aren’t meant to be as powerful as a main. There is a distinction. If you want to keep all your alts on the same level like me, you can be mediocre like me.

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I think you are making an issue out of nothing, honestly. I have never heard anybody truly have an issue with it. It was always cleared by raid lead first and it had to be when things were on farm.

Would you rather people quit when they geared out or keep playing and have the numbers in the raid group stay up while playing on alts? I am not seeing your overall issue. It is like you are trying to find an issue where there isn’t one. If this is happening in your own personal raid group, well, maybe you should address that. None of the things you have said has been an issue in any of mine.

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That’s exactly how I feel about your side. I’m gonna disengage from this discussion for a bit as it’s become really stale and boring.

You are the one making an issue out of nothing. Things change, get with it or deal with the frustration of unwillingness to accept change. Stagnation is a cursed feeling, so I hope you can overcome it.

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I am sorry you feel that way.

You’re sorry I want you to overcome your inability to accept change? You’re sorry I feel this conversation has become stale and boring? You’re sorry that I feel you are making an issue out of nothing and have a hard time accepting reality?

Why though?

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Why do you feel change is good? Look at the wow subs, with what little we know, I think we can admit that change has not been good for this game. But, hey, change.

:crazy_face:

Yeah! Make Azeroth Great Again! :crazy_face: :crazy_face: :crazy_face: :crazy_face: :crazy_face:

“Why do you feel change is good?” Come on… lol… You really think it was perfect? You really think WoW can’t be improved upon? You’re stuck in time. It’s weird. Wake up.

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I mean, if you can show me where changing the skeleton of the game has resulted in positives for the overall game, I am here to listen. But there is the uncanny fact that the sub numbers are the lowest they have ever been and a 15 year old version of the game is helping keep this game relevant outside of the mythic raid contest which was a week of excitement and now nothing.

I am stuck in a time when the game was most enjoyable. If you find this version of the game most enjoyable, congratulations. I am happy someone does. Nothing is perfect but I know when I wanted to stay on the game the most and that has not been the case for years now and it has nothing to do with the game being older/me being older.

It’s an incredibly old game and the playerbase is largely stuck in time like you because they played this game for up to 15 years to escape. When their escape becomes jeopardized to their interests and stops working for them, of course it’s going to cause them to get upset. Some people lean on this game entirely and couldn’t go on without it. It’s no surprise that sub numbers are low at the tail end of an ill received expansion 15 years into the game. Does that mean it’s in a bad state? Not necessarily. Just means it’s not in a popular state.

BfA is WoW at its peak in my experience. I played vanilla from dire maul all the way to wotlk, then played MoP, and a little bit of WoD. I know everyone feels legion was the greatest, but meh. I think people are more excited about when legion was in the final stage and they gave everyone ilvl boosts for their alts.

I think if you let go of this “stuck in time” mentality, you’ll be able to accept WoW for what it is and maybe even come to love it as it is. If you can’t let go of your expectations and dated standards, meh. That’s your problem. Blizzard doesn’t care about literal luddites. I don’t mean that as an insult either, it’s the literal definition of your psychological behaviour, luddite mentality.

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If you sum down someone’s argument to a simple strawman, you can win any!

… Unfortunately, good discussions aren’t made by people who want to ‘win’ them. And yes, it is my opinion, that’s the entire point of a forum - to discuss opinions.

There’s some good points hidden in your posts, but sadly you’re far too antagonistic to make a decent discussion out of them. :confused:

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I will never enjoy this game like I did until they get rid of the phone game-like game systems that limit you on activities you can do other than just chasing a white bar to make your character stronger but giving you the feeling that if you stop playing that character for any amount of time you will be behind. That is why the last 1/3 of legion was better. The first parts were god awful. RNG and that AP bar to fill up was the most I have hated this game, until BFA.

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