I miss combat

I miss feeling like a toe-to-toe stealthed fighter. Combat felt sleek and smooth. I miss red buff killing sprees. I miss slice and dice being the only option and being a good skill. I miss poisons. I miss DFA being a part of the rotation. I miss kidney shot.

I know people say that combat was a “worse fury warrior,” but to me it had a flavor. It was stylish and sleek.

I never wanted to be a dice rolling pirate with pistols. It’s cheesy to me. It feels Disney get ahold of rogue and redesigned it.

If blizzard wanted a pirate spec, they should have made a fourth spec. My favorite spec in the game died and I haven’t been able to pick a class/spec since. Nothing seems to satisfy the play style and theme that I used to love any more.


Outlaw is way more engaging and fun. Old combat was so hollow
Sinister strike spam, SnD duration, back to sinister strike spamming into evis

Edit: But I do recommend Classic Wow if you are wanting that play style!


IMO they need to add combat back as a tanking spec, call it duelist or something. Playing a fencer-style tank with tons of parrying/dodging would be fun.


There was a lot more to combat than that.

IMO, the apex of combat play was TBC and wrath, and it could be flipping amazing.

This thing you guys call a rogue now days is an empty shell of a once glorious class.

Marginalized by combo points that stack on the player instead of the target to cater to low quality play and lower the skill floor to satisfy those who refused to improve their play.

I see claims that this new rogue is more interesting and nuanced, but the truth is you’re only playing 1/3rd the class now because pruning has destroyed it.

PVE is a meaningless way to measure a class. Only PvP counts when it comes to class depth.

Right now, even the most sophisticated PvE rotations are but a joke compared to what was needed to be even marginal in older more interesting versions of WoW.

This game, and this class have been a sad meme of itself since patch 6.0, and that’s that.


↑ Combat was amazing through those expacs. It started to go down hill with cata, and was completely ruined with Legion.

Mechanics: Remember when combat wasn’t RNG-based? It wasn’t just the lack of rng that made the class better. Certain people (coughcough) say something like “but outlaw is more engaging!” The rotation of Outlaw isn’t anymore complicated than the height of combat in its glory days, it’s just more RNG-based. Is that really engaging? I say no to those people, and furthermore, it has made the class less reliable. Also, how is rerolling RtB 8 times in a row more engaging? I don’t see it. I find that to be far more humdrum than the old rotation…

Class identity: Combat was a ninja weapon master assassin of death and mutilation! Swords, axes, fist weapons, and maces (or, through BC, just swords because of sword spec) to rip an enemy up one side and down the other. Then Legion came about and the class went from being an awesome ninja weapon assassin of death and mutilation to…a pirate? That’d be like taking Demonology away from Warlocks and giving them mastery over faeries instead of imps.

Outlaw is a hollow, empty, smells-like-rotten-sewage-of-a-shell of Combat, and I was sad that the spec became so bad (especially with BfA) that after 14 years I finally made the switch for mains from Rogue to DH.



They came out with the cheese ability Kiling Spree in Wrath, but I quickly found a very good use for it… OG blade flury + Killing spree VS pet classes such as DK’s and my own Beloved Hunters… OMG it was freaking epic, the once high and mighty DK’s could no longer rule the roost, they were easily chopped down like rotten tree.

Cant blame you for switching, I too have done the same. Rogue has been dumbed down for the lowest possible common denominator and I only fear it will get worse.


I’ve played rogue since TBC. Acting like it was more complicated or a better spec back then is incredibly disingenuous. It was literally all about keeping SND up, spamming slow sinister and finishing with eviscerate. Pvp same thing, but using your stuns correctly, same as it’s always been. Old combat wasn’t anymore interesting than current outlaw. Outlaw is definitely more engaging and faster paced with procs as well as variation with your RTB’s buffs.
Old combat was a way more casual and easy faceroll spec that’s bore anyone with more than one working finger today.


You see it that way because the bar has been lowered enough that you can comprehend the modern rogue.


I… what? MoP and Legion had arguably the most spell interactions and longest priority lists for most classes in PvE, outside of that this is just… wrong. Skill ceilings in the “good old days” were marked by nothing but gear, consumables, and the ability to figure out what did most DPET without access to modern guides. Most specs had smaller rotations than we have now, and the game was significantly slower paced.

The only exclusion (like you said) was PvP and for the most part specifically rogues, who had more utility spells before they were divided up between the specs. Also, saying that PvE was a “meaningless way to measure a class” has not been true in quite a long time, and is largely opinionated.

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PVE is meaningless, full stop.

Classes should not be designed with PvE as the priority because PvE is transitory content consumed by players who then still QQ about even a 5% difference in DPS.

PvE as a means to develop classes has pruned the game to death.


It’s pretty clear you don’t know what you’re talking about. Please vomit on a different thread :+1:t2:


If you were looking to be taken seriously, this statement was your one-way ticket off that train, lol. Have fun.


I favor the current outlaw more, but just wanna have Killing Spree immune to CC like it used to be. Outlaw is missing a damage burst, and it is frustrating against healers and tanks…

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as someone who plays only outlaw/combat, I can tell you combat was not more engaging than outlaw, nor is outlaw more engaging than combat. I hated bandit’s guile, to me it was as much of a trash ability as roll the bones is today. I miss ArP(rip) and would like to see it brought back in some form, preferably baked into pistol shot, sinister strike or dispatch. I’d like to see some sort of execute tied into either pistol shot or between the eyes. I am happy we are getting wound poison back, although I’d rather forgo poisons and have a hard mortal strike ability preferably baked into sinister strike.
I remember in MoP when shrukin toss would activate auto attacks 30 yd range and I would eat ranged classes alive in bgs / world pvp. only problem you missed out on marked for death, but was a lot of fun. killing spree is a hollow shell of what it was, please revert at least the glyph baked in. no reason for it to teleport you back to the starting point. that destroys the ability. blade flurry should be togglable and only affect 2 targets. 100% might be to strong. feint cd is too long, 10 seconds should be about right. I’d like to see auto attacks not be a main source of our dps, rather have our abilities hit harder and less auto damage. slice and dice would increase energy regen and increase your melee range 3 yd (removing acrobatic strikes from the talent tree or keeping as a talent to increase our range 6 yd).


in short, I’d like outlaw to be more like a shotgun than an uzi

I want to preface this by saying that everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

I hated Bandit’s Guile for as long as it existed. However, it was nothing like RtB. Guile, despite it’s short comings, had a skill element. Knowing how to time it (because you could time it, in specific scenarios), and how to milk it when you had to change targets, was a strong way for combat rogues to express their skill. It allowed you to set yourself up to top parses by milking your class.

RTB is not that. RTB is 100% RNG, with the only “skill” being a surface level knowledge of what buffs provide the most DPS for you. Spamming a 0 damage finisher over and over again, in the hopes of getting the “good” buff, is not an expression of skill in the same way that lining up burn windows / cooldowns / trinkets / ect with a high % damage buffs is.

I won’t touch on the rest of the post really, as it’s mostly wishlisting. For me I genuinely enjoyed MoP combat (although it became a LOT better with the CDR trinket). Cata Sub was my favorite raiding spec ever. Even WoD was a fantastic expansion spec and balance wise. All three specs viable (on a fight-by-fight basis) for the final raid tier and all three enjoyable, with sub fun as hell to play.

I will say this though:

This is 100% intentional.

I have a post on these forums about how I raided with Celestalon when Legion was announced, and had the opportunity to ask him about why some rogue changes happened (he was the lead on redesigning our class). This was one I specifically asked him about, and mentioned that it took an ability, which was broadly disliked but also widely recognized for skill expression, and made it… Less good. Most of the dangerous elements still intact, but no awesome usage cases where you could express your skill.

He said that was intentional: He wanted KS to be a button you pressed for damage, and didn’t think it should have any ‘utility’ element attached to it.


ion doesnt even do pvp, he is a raid logger tbh

they hardly even care about pvp any more, you are delusional if you think thats what they design classes around

lmao @ “meaningless”

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Because class design is PvE first is why the classes are so garbage.

Everything prior to WoD was truly designed for PvP and PvE with respect given to both areas of play.

The audience who plays the game long term even after the raid tier is consumed are PvP players because they enjoy the classes and the nuance of play to a far greater depth than PvE players.

In short the classes should be more influenced by PvP because the player base is stable while PvE players are transitory seasonal complainers.


I miss the fantasy of a sword wielding combatant without having to be forced to be a pirate.


Need to have 3 talent sets.
#1 assassination. - stealth. strike. sneak. crazy burst. solid control. poor sustain.
instant 5 minute PVP deleter class. insta-gibb openings.

#2 Combat - weapon specialities. sword play and mace iconic talents. great sustain. lower burst. good surviability. high parry and dodge and crit.

#3 pirate - slice and dice. pocket pistols. get drunk skills to take less damage. parrot pet blind attack… all the stupid disney stuff they want in it. poker dice. what ever.

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