I miss combat

Combat had a lot of utility tied to it with improved sprint to break roots, improved gouge for restealths. Kick silence, extended range and interrupt of Deadly Throw. Parry and Ripsote. Improved SnD meant you could weave in some Ruptures or even focus on Expose armor, etc. Expertise meant you could allocate stats elsewhere and your finishers couldn’t be dodged. Blade Flurry was actually a powerful CD as the reflected damage bypassed armor.


No. Absolutely everything you said is wrong. This is a pve-centric game. It was designed around pve from the very start, and the majority of players never venture past occasional and casual pvp. Class balance was never a major problem - even in vanilla - until people started screaming for pvp balance. Now yes, it is true that no classes are on even footing - that is by design. It’s a massive game of rock-paper-scissors. But pvp balancing classes made class balance far worse than it was before, and it’s never recovered.


By failing to participate in PVP you’re missing out on 50% of the game dude, nay 70% of the game.

PVP is that big a component of World of WarCraft (especially Classic).

Take a look at the Tier 1 sets, they’re nearly 100% designed for PVP use, especially the original Pre-updated versions.

In the original Alpha / BETA interview with the developers (included in the special version of vanilla) Blizzard specifically talks about PVP and how the game is designed for PVP.

World of Warcraft started life as a true PVP-PVE hybrid, and it was VERY GOOD; this is why it became so damn popular.


Then you were doing it wrong (assuming you’re referring to PvE rotation due to your following statement separating PvP). In TBC, finishing move priority was: SnD > if SnD uptime is high, then Rupture > If Rupture is still applied then Envenom (Shiv Deadly Poison stack to 5 prior if not already there).

In other words, you were having to maintain buff and debuff finishing moves and making judgement calls (ie: is Rupture/SnD about to fall off and/or do I have the time if I Envenom to build 5 CPs for the next Rupture/SnD application?) on whether to utilize your CPs for those while balancing how high your Deadly Poison stacks were in order to choose between Envenom or Eviscerate. Much more micro then than now, for sure.


All of this while not having to deal with the b.s. RNG of RtB*, which is why combat of that time was vastly superior.

*edit: used the wrong dang shorthand…


AND proper use of consumables and avoiding pulling aggro on bosses because in TBC tank threat was still an issue that had to be considered.

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Needing 2 rogues to use Tricks of the Trade, or having to use it on the boss every time it’s up to avoid aggro, plus having to watch for vanish. Yup.

Uh…no? There wasn’t even a battleground until nearly a year into the game.

Also no. PVP does not - and has never - contributed to the storyline, and is no more important to gear or character progression than, oh, say, running dungeons. Just because you love to pvp doesn’t make a huge part of the game.

True, but they were 100% in the works; just did not get shipped on launch.

The game is based on Warcraft 1,2 and 3… A PVP game that had a side story line for solo players but the game was 100% designed as a PVP game.

World of WarCraft was a true PVP hybrid… And yes I love PVP, it’s where the game play goes from fun to truly exciting!


I disagree that PVP had that much of a importance on the class but the class WAS balanced for both PVP and PVE for at least during most of the Expacs (with a few highs and lows)…

But God, I hate Outlaw. In Theory, it was a totally awesome concept.
TERRIBLE implimentation.

RtB is just a nightmare. It’s like, we START with a significant handicap and we have to retry and retry to manage to roll a decent enough DPS increase just to maintain a baseline DPS.

And the Shots at stupid as hell. Warriors don’t have to weave their Throws into their rotation just to maintain any sort of DPS. Rogues should have a shot (or throw, for those who like that) but it shouldn’t be part of our rotation. Should be a Utility with a DPS component like we’re traditionally always have had.

Combat was wonderful. You kept building up momentum until, like a Crescredo of a Symphony, you become a whirl of Blades until either you or your opponent misses an beat and pays the price for it.

Outlaw feels like you’re a dancer with two left feet, thudding along without rhythm, trying your hardest just to keep up with your partner while trying not to look like a fool.

And in PVE, it was just as good. As long as you hit all the right notes, it was like music as you carried through the Bridge between Verse and Chorus.


I really hope that they make outlaw feel better in Shadowlands. I really don’t want to play DH for another expansion.

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Combat was not more complex than current Outlaw, but current Outlaw’s complexity is knotted tightly to frustrating gameplay mechanics, and negligence of previous rogue-ish tools. Combat was simple, but it was FUN. Furthermore, it reduces the class fantasy to being Darkest Dungeon’s highwayman - minus the badass factor -, or a badly dressed pirate.

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I think the solution is to make abilities how they want and then tune PvP armor to adjust for op numbers and pvp adjustments.

Ive never been big on pve myself.

PvErs ruin every mmo. But there is room in mmorpgs for non pvpers too.

I still think UO in its heyday was the most ideal game as far as the basics went. Crafting had value.


OR they can build the classes bespoke for PVP and then tune then make gear that’s got PVE special stats that provide +damage and healing ONLY when in a PVE instance.

This way the classes play as they ought too all the time, and when you’re raiding you get special perks for doing so.

Problem solved =)


I always enjoyed Combat back in the day. It was pretty fun in pvp when you could scrap warriors toe-to-toe.


Once upon a time I used to pvp, back when Armor Pen was a thing. Stacking armor pen and tearing up tanks was hilarious. Combat was even better for raiding, though. It was a strong class and fun to play for many expansions, especially TBC and WotLK. Stupid Outlaw. mumblemumblemumblemumblemumble


Hell yeah. Expose Armour, and then Killing Spree the hell out of suckers was hilarious.

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WoD red buff killing spree was always hilariously fun to me.


The whole game is dumbed down a bit. Forcing us into one tree or another instead of being able to creatively blend skills from different trees, being able to utilize poisons appropriate for the situation, and I know lot’s of people will disagree, but damnit I miss mace stun procs!


I liked the high crit rate of fists for world content and sword extra hits for group content and pvp.