Leaderboards are going to become irrelevant soon. Soon the information will be available for each individual character, I believe ion mention this at blizzcon or a q and a.
Edit: Context missed.
Yeah what he said is probably report worthy. That is just straight up griefing.
I feel like you’re being purposely obtuse.
Why would you want a leaver count? What use would it be?
I think the answer, based on reading your other posts and general opinions on the topic, would be to “mark” players with some sort of negative information to make them less desirable to groups.
In effect a “punishment” for what you perceive as committing a wrong.
I’m explaining that a leaver count in particular is useless info but overall, ANY attempt to punish players for leaving groups is going to have a very negative effect on the pug community if the punishment is actually as severe as some people are requesting.
I feel like you guys are imagining that adding a punishment system for leaving is going to create this utopia where no one ever quits keys and you always finish every run you start and you never lose … and that’s not what’s going to happen.
What will happen is people will just stop pugging them completely or if they do pug them then the requirements will be even higher than they are now as people look to reduce any possibility that the run fails and they’re unfairly punished as a result.
2 Likes
That’s a good idea in essence, but would’nt that be open to abusing the system to replace low dps?
Better a currency system that punishes leavers and rewards people that stay til the end.
That would certainly be a huge improvement and would result in IO scores being more accurate and likely more heavily relied on by the community than they are now (which is a good thing imo).
Idk, I’m not bothered by it because I am not one to quit keys, no matter how useless the key is to me. I think there is merit to players that have committed less leaves per run then other player because it means that they are more committed in finishing whatever the “group” wants.
You are the one being obtuse because you can’t see the forest for the trees on the topic, one of the main issues people are having in m+ is not only can they not trust lower io individuals to be able to do content, but they also have to worry about higher io individual who will leave on a dime. The information would give more to balance out this choice.
Absolutely this. If you add a system that punishes any form of failure and marks you permanently you are promoting further toxicity. Imagine players who run into a string of bad groups?
The funny part is this would actually hurt the lower end more than the higher end. The more casual group, which are the primary source of complainers when it comes to RIO, would be rejected from EVEN MORE groups.
1 Like
Everything is open to abuse. There is no such thing as a perfect system.
IMO, a better system would be to make the timers optional in the first place. So that people who don’t care about their times can opt to simply run more difficult dungeons at their own pace for gear at the end. You could even put looting back into the instances at that point and only have the end-dungeon chest mechanic happen on timed runs.
1 Like
Again though, no timer = bot paradise. They would take over farming the dungeons for stuff all day 24/7.
It’s a pattern that has plagued wow for years now.
The only way you could make a system like this viable is if you made the dungeons more punishing. No timer would need to require the dungeons be tuned like raids.
Do you understand that a player pushing 10+ Keys has probably left/quit HUNDREDS of runs … most/all of them while practicing with their M+ team.
If you see a guy with a 2k score … 389 dungeons completed, 1274 dungeons failed … do you honestly think that’s a bad player who’s going to quit your run?
Maybe they are. Or maybe 1273 of those dungeons quit were abandoned by the group and are just meaningless fluff.
On the flip side … someone who has no/low dungeons left doesn’t mean you want them in your group either … it just means they’re never willing to quit even if they’re only doing 2k dps and they’re dead for 90% of the run.
It’s useless information that is going to be used out of context.
2 Likes
There are ways to fix that. M+ content is just new.
If you’re not dealing with timers, you have more freedom with modifiers. So the devs could mess mechanically with bots all day long if they really wanted to.
Imagine a minor modifier that would just randomly spin you around. Combined with mobs that could backstab you if they got behind you.
A person will easily avoid the bulk of that unless they’re a keyboard turner or something.
Bots? Not so much. Sure, they’ll figure something out eventually, but it will take time. And by that point you’ll have come up with something else to annoy them with.
Fighting botters is an arms race.
1 Like
Not at all. Good DPS contribute as much to your timer and overall success as any other member. Without good dps you won’t be getting any key done on time.
At the end of the day, something this forum likes to forget is that Mythic plus wasn’t designed for pugging. Nothing about the system is pug friendly.
-
Mechanics matter on both trash and Bosses
-
A balanced comp makes a huge difference since its only 5 people.
-
There is a timer. There are consequences for failing the timer
-
You can’t replace someone mid dungeon.
-
I covered this a bit in 3, but its the most important point, is that you don’t just fail to progress if you fail a key. You regress. Your key downgrades.
Raider IO helps a bit in forming your groups, but its somewhat flawed as scores aren’t based of the difficulty of the affixes. And it doesn’t tell you how dedicated that pug will be to the success of your run.
You’ll have the best luck doing keystones with friends/guildies.
4 Likes
I push 10+ key, I’ve never left a dungeon until someone else has… Also maybe don’t count the leave if the player left after it was depleted.
I’m not talking about failed run were you complete the dungeons. I’m talking about incomplete runs. The information for that player would not matter for the keys they want to run then, because people at that level would have an appropriate ratio.
sounds like a similar argument against .io that I read around here all the time.
I completely agree with you on that OP.
I think people forget that communication goes a VERY long way.
I personally let everyone know when I make a group that this is purely for completion on time, going for time but don’t care if we don’t do it on time or just looking to finish don’t care about time. This interaction will take you around 30 seconds to 1 minute but will save you and everyone in the group 20 to 90 mins of torture.
Why should I be punished because all I care is IO and timer and I am going to leave if we don’t? Or why would that guy leave if I told him from the beginning that we aren’t doing timer? If I let you know that at the beginning we wouldn’t have this problem.
Communicate and this problem doesn’t exist.
I think if you’re going to provide the information (which i’m generally in favor of) it has to be provided with context. A counter isn’t sufficient.
At a minimum, the time remaining for the timer, the number of bosses killed, and the trash% have to be provided as well, for each time a player left. Additionally, it’d be sort of useless without knowing if this was a group aiming at completion as a minimum goal or if meeting the timer was the only acceptable goal.
I’m not sure this information, when provided with context, really lends itself towards a quick assessment of the player, so even though I err on the more information is generally better side, i’m not totally convinced that this information would be all that useful to most pugs.
Not necessarily. It would require work on the modifiers, yes. However I think you could get by with just more granularity.
Timed vs non-timed would have different difficulty scaling and different loot scaling. In essence, a +10 timed would not be the same difficulty as a +10 non-timed, so why try to balance them at all? Just rebalance the loot distribution and have the non-timed M+ dungeons top out at a higher key with more added mechanics.
So if a timed +10 awards max loot, have un-timed max loot drop at like +15 or +24 or something. I might just write up my idea for a revamped M+ system this weekend some time and post it. I was trying to, in essence, design a board game similar to M+ dungeons but for boss raids a while ago and this kind of thing is right up my alley.
1 Like
How I think it would efficiently work for assessment is that there is a counter per dungeon and key level, the first person to leave, outside of the player’s personal key, before depletion gets hit with the counter. All leaves after depletion is okay. The griefing that might ensue to cheese this system will be countered by grief reports.
Again, I am not bothered by this information being available if we are also okay with .io being available because it’s contextually similar to the pug leaders that care about this information.
Before anyone says raider .io can’t do anything about this, no they can’t, not yet, but blizz can put it on the character sheet, just like the changes they are making to the info.
Then give it more context.
Filter the data somewhat. Instead of lumping in every M+ they’ve left into one value, give groups that are “following the rules” an out. Give the leader a “disband group” menu option that will let them abort a run if the timer has run out. Or, better yet, put in a mode that’s like “timer or bust” that fails the dungeon overall if you don’t make the timer the moment it runs out (with loot bonuses if you succeed).