Nobody will ever learn anything, as long as the “solution” is always “I’ll just drop this group and join another where they carry me”.
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Or, they could retune these modes to offer more challenge. I think LFR needs to go, it is not needed anymore. Have a story mode that doesn’t offer any rewards.
The reasons these modes exist, is because they made raiding just way too hard. I’ve been playing since 04, and LFR came about in Cata because the new raids were just a huge step up in difficulty.
I feel the same about M+ we don’t need 10 levels of dungeons with 1 shot mechanics.
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If Blizzard really wanted to fix this game, they’d remove 80% of the trash from the dungeons, and then have the trash that remains absolutely require planning/puzzle solving to beat. You’re right, new players have no idea what crowd control, kicks, and the like are. Hell, most old players don’t.
The kind of gameplay described in this thread can be fun. But only in small doses- there’s a fine line between fun and tedium.
An example of what I’m talking about is the pulls in Spires of Ascension.
Mythic raids are a cut above and their existence is regrettably a part of why all of this other stuff needs to exist.
If everything was 10 keys and mythic raids, nobody would play except for token whales and bots.
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No. LFR came about because Cataclysm was a crap expansion and Ghostcrawler went looking for scapegoats.
And rather than admit truths like “we designed a crap expansion that people didn’t want to play”, they served up lies like “if you make the game challenging, people won’t improve”.
I just do follower dungeon …
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The “endless repeat mode” that WoW currently relies on was slowly developed as a result of faceroll dungeons, etc.
Think back to Burning Crusade. You did Shadow Labyrinth once - ONCE! - to do your kara attunement… and you were done!
There was no “farm it ten times a week until you hit the point cap”.
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It was a little of both. I was there, the Cata heroic dungeons were a punch in the gut for Wrath babies. The raids were the same, they were a huge step up in difficulty. Cata killed casual guild raiding which got super huge in Wrath.
For the record, Blizzard wishes they had Cata’s sub numbers today. Even though it was received poorly, a lot of people still played Cata.
I think retail WoW in 2024 is really struggling to keep people interested more than a few months post launch. The way the game is designed now, with these total seasonal resets ain’t working.
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It’s hard to find patch notes with the retconning of the internet that Classic launches have done.
But do you mean when we had like a dozen dungeons and a 10 man raid at launch as well as faction specific stories? Man them were the days.
Crazy, crazy days. The playerbase was much more discerning and distinguished despite the degenerates that have continued posting since those days.
The Heroic dungeons were fine. People just needed to play without their heads shoved down their pants.
The butchering of 10-man raiding was unforgivable, though. Raiding wasn’t hard… it’s just that 10-man raiding was hard. Blizzard thought that having the same number of mechanics, but only a third as many bodies to deal with them, was a good idea, which led to 10-man Heroic raiding being balls-bustingly difficult while people in 25-man coasted on easy street.
Because Ion didn’t want people to raid 10-man, because that’s not how he played the game. And he’s a giant control freak.
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Healers should just go on strike at this point.
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Um, people would farm these dungeons for blue gear even long after Kara launched. Gearing was so much slower in TBC which worked as sort of a timegate.
Retail isn’t WoW anymore, it is Diablo wearing a WoW skin.
I was in 10 man in cata, and you are right about 10s being more difficult than 25s.
I think this is one of the biggest problems that the game has. I hate to put the blame on one guy, but I totally blame Ion for the state of retail.
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Normal dungeons should be easy but still require you to actually pay attention.
Heroic dungeons should be where things start to get more difficult, you need to learn the boss mechanics and be careful not to pull more than 1-2 trash groups at a time.
Mythic should be very difficult where you have to plan your pulls, use CC and the other abilities available to your class, and overcome trash pull mechanics.
I remember people complaining about how hard heroic dungeons were in TBC but I really liked them. It felt GOOD to complete them and you could get decent gear from them or needed to do them for other reasons (attunements for example).
I think delves will start to take the place of difficult solo or small group content now.
Mythic+ never appealed to me because I don’t want to do some key grinding on a timer. That’s a little too much for me. But normal and heroic dungeons are just way too easy.
I’m not saying go back to those 2 hour sunken temple or BRD runs from vanilla, but maybe there’s a compromise between 5 minute dungeon runs and that?
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People like vaporizing huge swarms of enemies. That kind of fun is explicitly not allowed in M+ because there are too many interrupts or mechanics designed to discourage it. And encounter designers are still getting ingrown hairs in their colon about it and making that mass-pulling even harder in TWW.
So enjoy it in N/H dungeons now and look forward to them soon taking 45 minutes instead.
If I want to vaporize huge swarms of enemies I play Diablo 4.
It can be fun on some pulls in certain dungeons (even had a few pulls like that in vanilla) but with the way WoW’s specs are balanced some of us don’t have the best AOE and that can be pretty boring then if every fight is just a mess of AOE damage.
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Yeah it’s the most un fun dungeons have ever been.
Take me back to classic dungeons where I sheep a mob and hunter trap and each pull takes 1 minute per pack of mobs. Unironically, honestly - I would rather have this than these omega zerg 33iq dungeons.
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I think there’s a healthy balance to be found between the two.
Pulls don’t need to be as slow as vanilla (that WAS slow, sometimes it took hours to complete a dungeon!). Dungeons should take like 15-25 minutes assuming average gear for the difficulty level of the dungeon.
If that means buffing the rewards for doing them to compensate for the additional time, fine. I think that’s a good thing.
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The contrast is the fun. Fun that you are NOT ALLOWED to have at any other point.
Doesn’t matter if it’s over target-caps, gigantic packs still melt very fast with everyone blasting merrily away.
Perhaps I misunderstood I was just coming from a perspective of a tank, who has had dps harass me over wanting to kill the lieutenants. Now this has only happened twice since the game launched, and I’ve leveled three tanks so it’s not a huge problem or anything. But when it does it can be frustrating especially when a dps is spamming the chat about it.
the dps prob dont know what there talking about. also as the tank you would of seen how good your team is within the first pulls and will know if they can go to the boss or not
but again, in a h the bosses are pushovers. only thing that can kill someone is a overpull, but that normally only happens ones then everyone knows how good the team is