The rebellion against Garrosh started the moment he bombed Theramore (which was perfectly fine to do). Vol’jin immediately started distrusting him. You are wrong in this regard. The moment we went into MoP, Vol’jin and Baine were already telling us to ‘watch over Garrosh’.
Edit: In fact, even though Baine knew that Magatha had poinsed Garrosh’s axe, he let it happen and all Horde leadership thought that Garrosh had murdered Cairne.
That’s two whole expansions. Windy was deposed in just half of BFA. ‘Be wary’ and ‘REVOLT’ are two very different commands.
And in BFA the war was Civil. It wasn’t faction based. Yeah I figure more Tauren were in the Resistance than the Loyalist faction. Vice versa for the Forsaken. But you fought all types during the rebel war campaign. Tauren guards arrest Baine. There was legitimate division within the Horde.
Hence why an actual resistance had to be built up to challenge Windy and get her to reveal her cards.
A lot of BFA annoys me but the whole Saurfang rebellion bit was at worst; fine. It mostly made sense.
His challenge to fight here right then would have put a stop to that. Even after the first few catapult throws.
I’m not even going to attempt to argue this, the story was horrible for all involved.
Why would someone say such things?
I almost think fanciful Reddit headcanon parrots. Or something. Can one really think Saurfang’s protestations would have amounted to anything? Should Saurfang make a peep, he would have been either captured or exploded. As he was.
When he finally wanted to cry about it and quit the Horde, he wished to be Anduin’s Prison Joy Hole. Captured. When he spoke to Sylvanas about it and cut her face, she blasted him with purple power. Exploded.
Similar to this:
Absolutely they would have made a difference. Most the those in the war were Orcs and Forsaken. Had he issued that challenge, no one would have attempted to stop him especially not an Orcs, nor would they have allowed anyone to intervene. Remember who Saurfang is and what “honor” means to the Orcs.
I don’t even think she had that amount of power then, not until after Teldrassil and the death toll of the war.
Why? there’s nothing dishonorable about engaging in warfare, especially for a culture that’s centered around martial honor whether it’s Orc or Japanese. You’re not seeking validation from those you go to war with from the point of view with his conversation with Sylvannas, the long-term survival of the Horde is a perfectly good reason to go to war and possibly to gain that honorable death by combat with the enemy.
Nothing that happened before Teldrassil is a violation of Saurfang’s honor code.
There’s nothing dishonorable as long as it goes your way? Saurfang was eager to spill blood as long as it went favorably for him first and then the Horde. The end result is a bullet in the head of “orcish honor.” This could be explained by Blizzard not having a solidified clue as to what “honor” entails anymore, or Saurfang’s unwillingness to accept that warfare is an extension of politics.
If Saurfang was Japanese, he would have slit his own belly after Teldrassil where he would have written a scathing haiku discrediting Sylvanas and her stratagem.
The long-term honor of the horde has nothing to do with Saurfang’s personal take at honor. Saurfang was looking for an “honorable” loophole to throw his life away to cope with his shame. Sylvanas just provided him an excuse.
There is no concrete definition of orcish “honor” post Warlords of Draenor. Orcish honor as it currently stands is “everyone I don’t like is without honor.”
First of all, I do not see how you can claim an outright absolute of a hypothetical which is antithetical to the events.
That is gigantic leap.
At that moment, as per lore, even Saurfang was unsure of the direction of the Horde. That is how it is. Yet, you imagine a scenario where the Horde somehow aligned with a position even Saurfang couldn’t at the time?
Do you forget the Troll Mages who lit the payloads, and the Troll Shaman who guided the fires to burn Teldrassil?
Talk about generalizations. The nation of Japan is capable of producing folk of many opinions.
Talk to Blizzard who blatantly copied much of their culture for blademasters and Pandarens pre-MoP. And Pre-Chinese pandering.
Not for the Samurai. There is only one path for one so dishonored as Saurfang. Even the Vikings had loopholes for Valhalla. A pity Saurfang needed a ivory-tower human to point it out for him.
Saurfang wasn’t dishonored. The onus is on Sylvannas as Warchief, not himself. After Teldrassil, he simply wanted death by combat. Anduin refused to give it to him.
I can respect the Saurfang we got more than a Saurfang who would have simply committed hari kari and left with only a few words trashing Sylvanas. That would have accomplished nothing. Late as it might have been, at least Saurfang was able to get something positive done before he got killed. The Horde’s now free of Sylvanas. That, IMO at least, is better honor than Samurai honor.
Think about the significance of what a Mok’gora is. It’s not a leap at all.
It was also in the same lore that he did try shouting and telling them to stop when she shish have just challenged Sylvanas. He had more than enough time to do so before the burning reached its fever pitch.
Under the command of the Warchief. If there was a challenge to said position it wouldn’t have continued.
Only if the Warchief acknowledges the challenge. At that point though, it no longer mattered.
He absolutely was. He blindly jumped at a chance to get himself killed without any regard for the people under his command.
And he shared in her shame. But instead he cowered in Stormwind because is seemed better than accepting the fact that he was played like a fiddle and valued his own personal honor over that of the Horde.
Then you are a fool. “honor” among the Samurai (and orcs pre-WoD, remember Nazgrim?!) Valued loyalty above all. Harikari allowed a warrior to call out his or her commander on their poor leadership. Also:
Lets look as Seppuku in regard to honor:
> As a samurai practice, seppuku was used either voluntarily by samurai to die with honor rather than fall into the hands of their enemies (and likely be tortured), as a form of capital punishment for samurai who had committed serious offenses, or performed because they had brought shame to themselves.
Saurfang committing hari kari would have sent shock-waves throughout the Horde, and probably destroyed Sylvanas’ influence outside of the NuScourge.
Since you’re playing the Samurai tune, the honor of a Samurai is in total obedience to their lord and obeying whatever orders that lord gives. The virtue of those orders is irrelevant because that is not the Samurai’s concern but the daimyo;s. And ordering mass slaughter is nothing at all unusual for a samurai culture. Ask the Nankingese.
So you’re saying that if Sylvanas and Saurfang are fighting it out in front of the army no one going to pay attention?!?!? 
REALLY?!?!
She won’t dare refuse or lose the respect of at least the Orcs and Tauren, possibly Troll’s too. Come on now.
What I’m saying is that if he tried to fight her and she refused his challenge they would have been obligated to assist her in putting him down.
And that’s why hari kari or Seppuku is a loophole. It allows a “loyal” samurai to call out their lord for being a stupid fool and still granting them an honorable death that preserves their families honor. More than one daimyo was humbled by the self-sacrifice of their former warriors.
Because non-samurai or royalty are subhuman commoners in the old Japanese caste system. Saurfang would be an oddity for actually caring about “honor” surrounding lesser beings. That would probably result in him becoming rohin and being invited “to the other side.”
I got it now. Blizzard should play up the zealousness of the religion of light and redesign Stormwind to be more like Anor Londo from Dark Souls. Have Anduin be a good but inexperienced king with the priests/paladin leaders walking all over him kinda sorta really racist against the Horde, either trying to convert them or wipe them out.
Instead they want it to be Medieval Times Disneyland. No heads on spikes, no hanged criminals left to rot at the city gates. Humans are untouchable because Anduin is untouchable. So they use the Night Elves as the Worf proxy to show how evil attacks are on the Alliance through a strong and powerful people while not really having the Alliance suffer otherwise. Meanwhile, this paints the Horde as evil because Blizzard wants to show us how non-european-esque non-human races need saving from their dark savage pasts. They try to justify attacks on the Alliance by referencing long ago past crimes committed back when the writing was more interesting so they can pretend everything is morally gray and not zebra stripe confusion. This might turn out to be another WoD expansion, the Jailer will never be seen again, and neither will the Night Warrior power. Tyrande will use it again, just once, maybe to try to attack Sylvanas but Nathanos will jump in the way sacrificing himself and telling the audience how good Sylvanas is in a 15 minute cutscene, then Tyrande will lose her powers (Not die) and it will never be talked about again in-game.
In expansion 10 after the timeskip, Blizzard will do the unthinkable and have Thrall be possessed by Sylvanas to kill him off after he’s villain batted. They’ll try to be clever and have the Alliance attack this time (read only the Nelves, with the humans being pure of course), and Thrall will be corrupted during this time.
Then in 2025 WoW servers are shutdown and WoW 2 comes out as a mobile MMO that is outperformed by Raid: Shadowlegends 2.
So the Orcs, Trolls, and Tauren would have stepped in to help Sylvanas subdue Saurfang and she just refused a duel of honor, even refusing said duel is seen as dishonorable?!?! You can’t be serious. Do you realize the value the Orc’s place on such customs? Trolls are extremely close to the Orcs and the Tauren lost a leader in a Mok’gorah and you think they are going to stop him from challenging her. Do you not realize the amount of clout Saurfang has? Even Sylvanas knew she couldn’t carry that war if he wasn’t behind her.