I still don’t get why with all the crap Thrall has pulled why he gets such a massive pass from you; while Baine is completely unsalvageable? To the point where Thrall NEEDS to be Warchief again?
Thrall outright abandoned the entire Horde for years, and has historically had a far more mutually beneficial relationship with Jaina than Baine has ever had with Anduin (who, to date, Baine hasn’t every really done anything that has functionally benefited the boy king yet). He even outright works with the Alliance during those periods of his absence. And unlike Baine, Thrall was not involved on the Horde side of things even during MoP, once it was time to down Garrosh.
Like … why not condemn them both for their nonsense and want to improve them? Or condemn them both and think both unsalvageable? Why profess one needs to be Warchief, while the other can never be fixed? When the prior is guilty of way worse than what you hate the latter for?
Garrosh becoming warchief seemed out of Metzen’s hands. He had to roll with it and tbh I wouldn’t want Thrall associated with Garrosh’s Horde, either.
Thrall actually fights For the Horde and kills Alliance when the Alliance goes too far. Baine has to be blackmailed by Garrosh “YOU WILL SERVE THE HORDE OR BE CRUSHED BENEATH IT” Hellscream, or he will banish from Thunderbluff all tauren who dare to stop the Alliance from invading Horde Sovereign Territory.
I don’t disparage being friendly with the Alliance. I disparage lacking a spine and refusing to fight the Alliance until there is literally no other choice. That’s how Baine do, and he needs to die ten years ago, but today.
Y’mean how Thrall did for years? And at this point I think its pretty clear that you just hate Baine because you hate Baine, and the details don’t really matter. Which is why you relentlessly harp on the “Valid Military Target” thing … and just ignore everything else. Or rely on Meta arguments to invalidate Thrall’s BS behavior, but refuse to do it with Baine. Like, you do understand that the only reason the Tauren are even in the Horde is canonically because of Baine right? Or that he had largely buried the hatchet with Garrosh up until the Orc became unhinged in MoP. Or you would know if you didn’t just invalidate all the Baine content in the short stories and books … cuz reasons.
The reason Baine needs to die and Thrall needs to become Warchief is largely your own personal bias. You hate the prior for doing lesser crimes than the latter, but since you like the latter … those crimes are excusable. While the prior’s crimes are not, because you don’t like him.
If only we were in the middle of an expansion where Thrall could meet dead horde heroes of the past that might inspire him to see good in the horde again!
You do realize they only wrote that because it was literally the only way to get the Horde to like him after “Camp T was a Legitimate Military Target and the Alliance is the blameless victim. Anyone who defends the Barrens is hereby banished from their homeland. We must save all Alliance lives. The Horde’s lives do not matter.”
Yeah, “Meta Reasons Invalidate Thrall’s BS Behavior” … “Meta Reasons Invalidate Baine’s reasons for his BS Behavior”. You’re not even attempting to hide how lacking in an even hand you are being with these two characters. Thrall gets nothing but excuses for his nonsense after he abandoned his people, Baine can’t even have justifications behind his choices.
Like I said … your argument BEGINS at the conclusion, and then you fill in the blanks. Since the conclusion can’t be wrong, facts and context can never matter. The same factor is ironically working in the favor of Thrall atm too. Thus, "Baine “needs to die” and Thrall “needs to be Warchief”.
There’s been a lot of nations that have participated in genocide. So no, not bait.[quote=“Pellex-hyjal, post:443, topic:759911”]
My original complaint was that the Horde PC is not told in the game that Daelin was a wannabe genocider. We’re only told that he was the beloved leader of Kul Tiras, and we meanies murdered him. We’re never told why.
[/quote]
Doesn’t Rexxar make a comment when he fought that one guy? Besides, there’s that cutscene where Anduin considers Daelin to be a stain on the alliance.
“Treng, provide evidence for why Baine sucks.”
“Your evidence doesn’t count because it begins at the conclusion, despite that our first introduction to Baine was him being an Alliance-Worshiping cow with no other metaknowledge to drawn upon.”
I never said “Baine doesn’t suck”. I will freely admit he has problems. My argument here is how absolutely massive the double standards you have between Thrall and Baine are. When both have huge issues as characters, and if you’re not invalidating his actions on a whim, Thrall has committed far more grievous instances of the types of events you hate Baine for. Yet, Baine is an “unsalvageable mess that needs to die”, and “Thrall can be fixed, and needs to become Warchief”.
In short, you can either think both are messes and can be salvaged with the right work. You can think both are messes, and think both are beyond fixing. But you arbitrarily think one with completely beyond repair or growth, and the other is not … while using Meta Arguments to Invalidate the frankly greater “Crimes” of the latter … and Meta Arguments to Invalidate the reasons or justifications for the honestly lesser “Crimes” of the Prior.
Thrall’s biggest sin is returning to outland. Beforehand, he could’ve been literally anywhere. And Nu-Blizz wrote that he was out there. Thrall fights the Alliance. Baine does not. They aren’t the same.
Your argument is flawed.
Thrall certainly never cut off piece of his tusk to send to the Alliance boyking.
He also didn’t banish the Horde for defending the Horde. Nevermind that absolutely nothing the Tauren did was wrong. Not one thing. “b-but Treng they killed Hawthorne, there was no more need for violence.” Yes there was, because the Alliance were still invading the Barrens.
Just the way you keep saying “We already like him, so why does it matter?” It really sounds like you’re in favor of it happening.
Those are just vague references to Daelin being bad somehow. Rexxar talks about his “tyranny,” which is a huge understatement, and Anduin literally only says his name as part of a list. Nothing in there says “genocidal maniac.”
You truly have no read the external source material have you. How Thrall insisted that Garrosh be the next Warchief; how he constantly refused to return till Garrosh went completely unhinged, after the Mana bomb; how his actions betrayed nearly every single person who called him a friend. You’re arguments are hinged exclusively on what content we have in game, and in the case of Baine (since the vast majority of the actions he takes are direct consequences of events that takes place in that external material) … of course he comes off as worse than Thrall if you just invalidate it all.
You’re arguments are flawed, because they operate off of “I don’t think this content counts for X, Y, Z reasons … so it doesn’t count. But this other content absolutely counts because A, B, C reasons”. When at the end of the day, it all just boils down to … I like this character so I give them the benefit of the doubt, and don’t like this other character so I wont. Its just self-reinforcement of bias.
EDIT: And I am still waiting for a single thing Baine has actually done that has benefitted Anduin in a tangible way. Because other than sending him a piece of Horn Dandruff alongside his “I need to cease communications due to my Warchief’s request” … there isn’t any. Baine hasn’t done crap for Anduin. Hell, up until Derek … the most he did for even Jaina was send her a “Get Out” letter before he helped attack her city. Which he fully intended to destroy, despite his debt to her.
Got sources on that, homie?
I don’t remember anyone pleading with Thrall to return (Until BFA.) Who was he refusing?
My eyes rolled so far into the back of my head that I could check myself for a brain tumor.
Well, stopping the Tauren from killing the Alliance in the Barrens definitely allowed them to hold out for… what, ever? I don’t know if they ever actually withdrew from the Barrens. If they did, the Tauren certainly had nothing to do with them leaving because Baine would not allow them to interfere.
Well, off the top of my head he outright refused to come back when Jaina requested it in Tides of War. And considering the nightmare of his mistake on insisting that Garrosh be placed in charge, he should have voluntarily come back long before the Siege of Orgrimmar. His decision to FORCE that boy into that drivers seat led to the death of Cairne; the attempted assassination of Vol’jin; the butchering of the Darkspear people; and the betrayal of his long time friend Jaina (and she absolutely was by that point). Hell, the only time he actually came back prior to SoO was to stop Jaina from drowning all of Org … and even then Kalec had to bail him out.
Like truly, did you not get why people were upset with him in his resolution in WoD? Because he shirked all responsibility once he killed Garrosh? Why do you think the Elements no longer listen to him? Because even he knows he screwed up … and his own internal turmoil from his own mistakes that cost so many of those he claimed to care about so much pain. And as for your Baine thing … literally just the “Valid Military Target” thing; riddled with hyperbole. Figures. Which is why you totally invalidate “As Our Fathers Before Us” which gives context to why he made that choice; as well as the Tauren’s political situation during the time. You truly have nothing else.
Oh please.
Thrall was wrong to make Garrosh Warchief, but let’s not pretend for a moment Garrosh wouldn’t have killed Cairne or Vol’jin for it the second Thrall left. Garrosh was a world-renowned liar. He said he didn’t want Warchief, but actions speak louder than words: When Cairne challenged him, he decided it was better to kill Cairne than give up power.
Thrall’s mistake was giving Garrosh power, true. But Garrosh’s crimes aren’t on Thrall’s shoulders. No one is guilty for his crimes, but Garrosh.
That would be more a product of orcish culture then him being a liar, and especially since Mok’gorah in most instances we’ve seen is to the death. So garrosh would either have looked like a massive coward which his pride would not allow, or be killed because he would’ve “lost” the duel.
He’d personally taken place in a mak’gorah that wasn’t prior, when he tried to forcefully take Warchief over Thrall because “my daddy was insulted, abloobloo.”
That’s possible, but he’d spent long enough in the Horde to know it recognizes and values wisdom when they see it.
Thrall did the effective of equivalent of insisting a live bomb gets put in the Horde room, then decided to ignore it until it exploded. He shares responsibility for the Garrosh issue. He does not get to cherry pick a leader for the entire Horde over his far more capable friends, and then just YOLO when that leader he hand picked goes bad. For years…
Also, Garrosh didn’t kill Cairne intentionally. Or at least not the way he wanted. Magatha took advantage of the duel to poison Garrosh’s axe without his knowledge; but it was the fallout from the death of Cairne that had the Tauren so on edge with the Horde. As well as Garrosh’s decision to place the Bilgewater in Azshara, which led to the the pollution of the Horde’s Fresh Water supply. Which fell hardest on the Tauren, since they were pressured to use their reserves for the Horde.
Both character have problems, equally problematic ones. Either hate them both for their “betrayal” of their people, and think them unsalvageable. Or admit that both have issues that can be resolved with the right story and attention, and are just crap now. Having one be “Warchief Material” and the other “Needing to Die” because of a single decision the latter made that you refuse to let context apply to is truly intellectually dishonest.
He didn’t yolo for years. Thrall had been an active member of the Horde since the end of MoP until Legion. Legion was when he disappeared. Then he came back in BFA.
Okay? He still decided that he would rather defeat Cairne than give up power. That action proved he wanted Warchief.
You severely undervalue Thrall’s accomplishments unto the Horde while severely overvaluing Baine’s (hint: the only thing he did that was pro horde was saving Derek and saying “okay we’ll stay in the Horde” when the tauren were written out of character.)