i don’t doubt cairne was really strong in body and in mind in some ways but i also think that we are all in weak and strong in more than one way , i think that yes overall cairne was a better leader than magatha would have ever been , but magatha has a form of strenght that cairne didnt , she has the strenght to do anything neccesary to be done to keep her people alive
I believe that cairne had somewhat of a saurfang issue “not as bad but pretty similar” he had too much honor and values to do anything truly bad and sometime you need to do bad things if the situation demands it
like the person above explain there is reasons for why the taurens under cairne couldnt fight back the centaurs but it doenst mean that they were out of options , i am sure they had other options to fight them , options that cairne refused to use because he would have deemed them too “unhonorable”
The Horde now needs one thing above all in my eyes:
A new narrative: that of the noble savage, hated by the world, was thrown out of the window in a high arc in WOW.
That of the destroyer, the bringer of death, the monster that is accused of being the Horde, and it is, is in the long run only one thing :Toxic.
So the Horde needs a new narrative without becoming an alliance 2. 0.
In my eyes, even here small stories will have more impact.
Trolls need some kind of enclave, the big tribes need to reconnect with Zandalari, the role of the Darkspears needs to be clarified, in the sense of Metawise, it can’t be that the Zandalari swallow the whole story focus of the Darkspears. So Darkspears need something that definitely differentiates them from the others, now that Bwonsamdi and Gonk have both become strongly rooted in Zandalar, we need something new that makes Darkspears stand out.
Orcs need a way to combine this warlike Mongolian with the spiritual. I would establish a permanent opponent, the Botani perhaps, without the orcs being seen as monstrous. Instead of night elves as a long term opponent, I would use the barrens for the horde in this case. Ashenvale is over, it’s time for a new era. The Botani make the area green, let forests grow up, but the fight Orc vs Botani is at the same time a fight for the resources that this creates.
Tauren need something that defines them more, they are supposed to be the moral backbone of the Horde, but for that they also need teeth, or well, hooves. On the one hand, the diplomatic middle element that balances the interests that prevail in the Horde, and on the other hand, if necessary, the defenders. Especially at borders to alliance areas like Ashenvale Tauren should be stationed. They have a de-escalating effect, but they can also kick with it.
Goblins need a new narrative, it must go beyond greed, but remain greedy. I am in favor of Goblins and the Gnomes being in a cold war of arms race, but on a scientific level.
Blood elves and nightborn both need that certain chic to act as a magical counterweight to Dalaran (I would even say “big brother”), as well as to Jaina. Rommath vs Jaina, Fire vs Frost, while Thalyssra may not be the great powerhouse, but the great teacher. She may not be that powerful herself, but her knowledge of arcane magic should stand out, she should instead of asking Jaina what it is, know what Jaina did, even if she can’t reproduce it.
The Forsaken should leave Tirisfal. Because it cannot be saved. Theramore, Teldrassil, all those places were permanently destroyed, they never came back ingame, then so should Tirisfal. So my advice here is to look for alternatives. I would say Alterac would be a good option, and the area around it. start rebuilding, like the nightelfs.
Well Cairne used to be that bite the Tauren needed, he was a strong leader who wasn’t above fighting as long as it was for a noble cause. Baine is his antithesis though, very peace oriented at any cost when he needs to be more shrewd in his dealing for peace, he needs to be strong and put his people and his allies over personal friendship to Anduin. He can still be friends with him, but friends aren’t supposed to merely capitulate constantly to the other. Cause then it’s no longer a friendship between equals.
But Cairne is dead, and making a 2nd 0 Cairne is not very appealing in my eyes. Baine should have differences, he should be different from his father, but at the same time have recognition value. After all, he was raised and educated by his father.
So Baine needs both his own character and shown influences of his father.
So I would completely redefine Baine’s role. The Tauren can remain the moral backbone and source of integrity, but they should also be portrayed as defensible and believable. That’s how I see them as a frontier to the night elves, especially the night elves, on Kalimdor. The night elves will shoot, shoot down anyone who enters their forest again and has not been invited by them, the Tauren respect that, understand that, but make sure that no night elf comes out to hunt the horde, they fight for the preservation of peace between night elves and horde and they understand both sides, but are also willing and ready to defend the horde, and as the leader of this border guard faction I would put Baine and let him merge into this role.
The role he fulfills is not a nice role, it is a necessary role, for the horde, for honor. The Alliance is not the element that keeps the peace, it is the Tauren, and therefore the Horde, that ensures with actions that the peace is kept, but by BOTH sides. They prevent Horde members from entering Ashenvale, but they also prevent vengeful night elves from hunting the Horde. They lock the night elves in the north of Kalimdor and the Horde in the south, so to speak.
Well my words are to not create a Cairne 2.0 but to merely iterate that Baine needs to grow up, like you said he needs to remember the lessons of his father but needs to be his own Tauren. But he also needs to distance himself from Anduin, cause he won’t be able to have a good character growth when players can still see him being close to the leader of the alliance this painting the picture of the alliance bootlicker, like I said he doesn’t need to end the friendship but he needs to actually distance himself abs focus on the horde and his people more so he can be the moral background.
BFA the worst Baine did to Syl and her plans was to free Derrick but up to that point he had been complicit in many of the battles, staring away from being the moral voice of the horde.
I was reffering to the Horde as a faction, not you players. And I think that would be a great way to show that the Horde aren’t the orks from warhammer.
That is rich coming from you. But I was refering more to recent events. For whatever reason Blizzard thought it would be a good idea to make it look like the whole Horde supported the burning. I’d like to correct that.
Yah, I don’t quite get why blizz wrote “Sylvanas has the heart of the people.” Or whatever weak justification it was for the horde to be as supportive as they where. We know why Saurfang agreed to the war, and it was worried about genn driving Anduin to war after the Stormheim fiasco, a good war even started this fact.
Just in case the quote is needed here ( “The boy in Stormwind will not start a war tomorrow,” Saurfang said.
Her eyebrows lowered. “With Genn Greymane in his ear? We will see.”
That was a concern, Saurfang had to concede. In the thick of the fighting against the Burning Legion, Greymane had launched a mission to kill Sylvanas. It had gotten some of Stormwind’s few remaining airships destroyed.
There were whispers that Greymane had ordered the attack without Anduin’s permission, but as far as Saurfang knew, Greymane had not been punished. The implications of that were troubling, and every possible explanation led to same conclusion: the old worgen would always drive the Alliance toward war)
True true, still rather weak. Like what did she really do to earn such reverence? I played horde through legion then BFA and was like “wait? What? She has the hordes undying loyalty? The woman who almost every leader in the horde thinks is shady af?”
Super easy to win the hordes support, just tell Lok’tar ogar or for the horde and you’re good, regardless of how many years of suspicion and mistrust that you never did anything to assuage throughout the games life.
Sylvanas had the heart of the Horde for the same reason Anduin has the Alliance; because the devs said so, and used “They were the faction leader during X period” as justification.
Yeah that’s the reason, doesn’t mean it’s a good one or anything but it is the reason.
Also got really tired of seeing posts where people said concerns of Genns actions in Stormheim where not the catalyst for Saurfang agreeing and starting a war and that it “never happened”. So I found the quote for that.
Funny thing though, he seems to have done just that in post legion questing when he sent saboteurs and assassins into silithus to get his hands on a mysterious substance called azerite. Conveniently overlooked in that conversation.
Timeline for that from what I’ve seen is loopy, and I do not touch that with a ten foot pole till I get good clarification on it. I’ve seen statements that alliance started it, I believe I’ve seen blizzard starting horde started the Silithus debacle I just don’t want to touch that can of worms due to how confusing that timeline of events seems to be.