I like this. “If making classic different from classic is a deal breaker for you, then maybe classic isn’t the game for you”. This… this is fantastic. I really hope you re-read that a few times and can appreciate it as much as I do.
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It’s already different…
Ive only read OP, but im pretty sure what i say has been said all the way through this thread.
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I am NOT no-change. I want changes. I want class balances. Warriors got away with a tonne of crap in vanilla and had way too many advocates in the design team supporting their BS claims. They are a hybrid class (tank/dps) with absolutely no hybrid tax vis a vis pallies, shammies, and druids. Its total crap.
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I want new content in vanilla. I dont want to play through TBC. Sure, right now its new and fun, but two years down the line and TBC… im back in 2007 groundhog day.
BUT
The obvious points are
a) no changes creates a dam like resistance. As soon as you start changing minor GAMEPLAY (I dont care about cosmetics) you open it up to all kinds of changes which are ABSOLUTELY inimical to classic. Im with tali on this point: Once you open up raid balancing (for instance) why not class balancing? And if class balancing, why not homogenisation or a reworking of talent trees a la wotlk?
b) As Xn (ascalon - apes) said: Vanilla is the spirit of classic, i want to play classic. I would love classic plus, but i just dont trust the current devs to deliver it. [editor note: He doesnt mean they are bad at what they do - they are REALLY good at what they do, but that they might be focused on balanced in specs over fun and RPG aspects for Esports environs].
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Sorry… how has it fired a bazooka at our ideals? We asked for Vanilla, we largely got it. We understood and mostly agreed that we’d have to settle for a later version, not least because we couldn’t really expect them to recreate all the silly bugs later patches patched.
There are of course folks complaining at the gutted difficulty. But A) it’s not gutted as much as they claim, B) this was always a possibility, and C) it’s still MILES ahead of retail.
And yes, Classic+ IS the ideal… an ideal we NoChanges never thought to strive for because we didn’t trust Blizzard or each other to attain it.
Some of us advocate for it, in the form of Pantheon and a few others, but those who still trust Blizzard to deliver it are… rare.
Raids and dungeons are far from retail in terms of difficulty…
Yes. Everyone understands this. In terms of twitch mechanics in high end raiding and high end 5 mans, retail stands alone. I’ve actually never seen anyone argue otherwise, though I’m sure there are some.
When we NoChangers (and other Classic minded folk) talk of difficulty we mean strategic difficulty (threat, mana conservation, etc) and leveling in the world and leveling dungeons.
So A) it’s a different kind of difficulty, and B) it’s a different place.
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That’s fair. I’m totally in disagreement with you on “no changes” I feel a buff to raids would help the longevity and fun in the end game, and would not effect the leveling experience. I only see that change as a win/win because it’s in the spirit of vanilla(raids were supposed to be difficult.)
On your last point, I’d also like to mention that WoW devs are phenomenal at what they do; it’s just that what they do I don’t usually like.
Warcraft was a watered down casual “for the masses” version of the more serious RTS titles out at the time… with phenomenal execution, music, graphics, balance, etc.
Lost Vikings was a silly and casual version of puzzle games… with phenomenal music, graphics, humor, and accessibility.
Wow… you get the picture.
They’ve always targeted the masses… and hit their target spot on.
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OP if you dont understand people who do not want Changes then its because you cannot see past your own nose. Your own Selfish desire overrides your own ability to logically reason.
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You’re mistaking him. He isn’t claiming they’re imbeciles because they disagree with him. He’s claiming they are imbeciles because they’ve been exposed to the errors in logic required to conclude that it’s a slippery slope (to say classic+ will turn to retail), and rejected the logic.
It’s a pretty solid case, really.
I think the problem is the people that want no changes don’t trust Blizzard to make the correct changes, which was shown time and time again with retail. I’m sure there are a dozen things both sides can objectively agree to, but one half don’t want to risk it and the other half might be overcompensating.
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So: “You’re an imbecile if you don’t accept all my arguments as fact.”
Sorry, if you’re calling people names then you lack confidence in validity of your points. Or you’re young and haven’t yet been able to imagine a world outside your own experience.
That’s MY experience with the slippery slope of debate mechanics.
Exactly. I 10000000% agree. I like the current game and i love the current devs. But the iron law of blizzard mmo’s is this:
a) Should you intervene, that intervention will create at least twice as many issues needing to be resolved.
b) Stay your hand.
Not a single part of me believes that blizzard acts maliciously. But every over-arching involvement by blizzard ALWAYS results (unintended consequences) with a worse game. This is basically the history of wow. If only players wouldnt force their hand by being…
Arguments don’t belong to anyone. If you do not accept a logical conclusion, you are wrong. Obviously no one speaks in pure logic, which is why logical refutation is expected.
Calling people names could also be a symptom of having given up on the general populace being able to understand logic.
Sorry, I wasn’t talking about logical conclusions. I was talking about the underlying assumptions or data that the argument is based upon.
That may be a motivation but it’s no excuse. It’s just lazy and mean-spirited.
But you #nochanges do you, and I’ll do my #SmallTinyChanges lobbying and we’ll both be happy filling up the forums with our kruft.
I’ll even sign your petition, as long as you dont touch Classic.
Dude, unintended consequences. This is literally the history of wow. Not those basic intended consequences (every spec is valid) but rather… every spec is valid because we just homogonised specs and now spec differentiation isnt so important (WOTLK).
Hey guys, we want everyone to feel their spec immediately so now at level ten you can mutilate (cata).
And look at our talent trees…
Whats that? You want personalisation? How about reforging? No? What about artifact weapons? No? How about azeroth power, i mean its basically a kind of talent tree…
Okay… we give up…!
?
How about a level squish?
(IM GENUINELY NOT BEING CYNICAL. Im pointing out that the attempt to solve the a) differentiation and b) design issues leads to the obvious result that classes will end up with the same skills and c) will be so complex (with 120 talent points and all their unbalanced designs) that they can only be curtailed through restricted choice.
So thats where you are. What do you actually want?
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What does QoL changes have to do with your parting comments? Are you really asking Blizzard for something other than QoL changes? This is why we have the #NOCHANGE crowd because it never is just a “simple” addition.
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i’ve said this plenty of times before. instead of asking for changes in classic why aren’t you all asking for a classic+ server instead and leave what is intended to show what vanilla 1.12 was like alone.
do you seriously trust the current devs to pick the proper changes in the first place? look at what retail is, that is what they consider wow should be. heck, if you need another example, just look at what patch they picked for classic in the first place.
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Sorry, I’ve lost the macro perspective here, sure you responded to the correct post? Unsure what exactly you’re saying/asking.
I agree largely with your points, although I disagree that they were unforeseen or unintended. I’m sure game design panels can predict this stuff if random forum-goers can.
What I want is classic+, but I don’t trust the devs to embellish it, so I settled for classic, while waiting for Pantheon and playing P99.