Only thing us players can do is pretend the need button does not exist.
you can use the system as designed, thatâs your choice, or not.
Thereâs no direct definition of upgrade, correct. But that doesnât make my statement false. What we can determine from the rules is that Transmog does not fit under need, otherwise we could take the same statement:
"You may roll Need if and only if you can equip the item and it is a transmog and you donât own the same exact itemâ
However, we can disprove this statement. Because you cannot roll Need on an agi polearm which you can transmog on a Paladin. So this is a false statement. Which means transmog =/= upgrade.
I gave you citation, with the same wording.
The game is interpreting the piece of gear as an upgrade, yes. However, that does not mean that transmog = upgrade because of the statement above. If you can find a case where an item can be Needed which has a main stat, but not one that matches the loot spec, we can call this one indeterminate, because that would be an inconsistency.
What point(s) have you even made? How does this answer the question?
Actually, never mind, I think this one is done. Itâs simply become combative and youâre obviously not actually reading anything Iâm writing, so itâs a waste of time for both of us.
I think the reason your example with the paladin and agi polearm is an issue is because the first factor for determining whether a user can roll on a piece at all is if itâs meant for the main spec they are on, and then off-spec. As agi polearms would not be flagged as something meant for a paladin, they donât get to roll at all - which includes transmog since the first âcheckboxâ starts with whether itâs for your main spec.
We have all agreed at some point in this thread that Blizzardâs system is flawed. The transmog button has never really worked as intended.
Before transmog, Need/Greed rolls were easy in dungeons - it was either for your main spec (had the right stats, could be equipped) or it wasnât. Simple Need/Greed. But then transmog happened, and Blizzard also decided to start doing this thing where they lock different colored versions of tier sets behind the different raid tiers KNOWING FULL WELL that people would be running the different tiers to get those sets. I say they know full well because they WANT geared players running in things like LFR - theyâve said as much. Itâs good for metrics, re-playability, and for geared players with more experience to be helpful for newer players in lower tiers of the raids. It gives people a reason to continually do every tier, every week in some cases, for weeks or months until they get it all.
- Different colored sets in different raid tiers = more mog to collect and more re-playability on their content that keeps us going back week after week
- Experienced players who are overgeared going back into lower tiers = also good for the health of the game for more inexperienced players getting started in raids
They absolutely know what theyâre doing and the âambiguityâ is intentional.
No, I donât think the upcoming changes are going to prove the current intent thatâs being argued at all, because they are going to have to completely revamp the way the rolling system works in order to accommodate the ability to collect all armor-type transmogs on any class. Theyâre not going to release that with their current loot roll setup, lol. Their current stance or intent - the topic of this thread - is going to have to change with the changes to the system as well, so what we get will be a completely new set of guidelines and intentions to match that, and will have to be more specific than it is currently. Itâll prove nothing, unfortunately.
Who knows - maybe they have this sweet overhauled loot system ready to go for when they open things up that will solve all of this. (Maybe itâll even be as cool as things weâve suggested in this thread of separate rolls for gear/transmog or a transmog token.)
I also donât buy that itâs too complicated to determine âupgradesâ when it comes to transmoggable pieces. It is an easy check to see if someone is already wearing the mythic shoulder set piece when going to roll on the LFR shoulder set piece and to gray the Need option out, but they donât. Even if some other items like trinkets can be tricky, mythic level Benevolent Embersageâs Wisdom vs. LFR level Benevolent Embersageâs Wisdom is a no-brainer. But Blizzard knows we want and will hunt the different colors, so they allow those Need rolls. They know if they didnât allow that Need roll for transmog that a lot of overgeared players wouldnât have a reason to go back in the lower raid tiers, and they donât want that.
If they really wanted to enforce that âupgradesâ only means power upgrades and not transmog, that would be easy for them to do, too. Instead of saying âplayers canât Need on a piece of loot if theyâre wearing the exact piece at the exact item levelâ they would instead have specified âplayers canât Need on a piece of loot if theyâre wearing the exact same piece at the exact same or higher item level.â ⌠but again, they donât because they count on us moghunting all tiers for the different colors.
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This is a video game that provides many avenues to enjoy endgame.
You want a higher ilevel item so you can do more dps.
I want a green robe to complete my set.
We both contributed to the kill of a boss. We both want something from that boss. We both roll our best option at getting what we want from the boss - the game says we can both roll Need on this robe, so we do. RNG takes over.
You can say some are asking others to put their wants on hold so other people donât have to put their wants on hold.
How long do I have to put my wants on hold so that you donât have to? A week? Oh look, another fresh set of 70s who also want that item. Guess Iâll put my wants on hold so that they donât have to. On repeat⌠week after week. Itâs their first run in that raid, but itâs my 9th. At what point do I get to consider my wants? Do you seriously expect people to put their wants on hold until they can solo the raid for it? Just because I enjoy a different avenue at endgame than you? Youâre saying your wants are more important than mine.
Sorry, but no.
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I have said this probably like 5 times in this thread, they donât care they just want you to either pass or not show up to LFR. Then all you do is wait 3 years for the content to be soloable, then maybe you can get it.
You just have to accept you are paying for content you cant do for 3 years to protect the feelings of other people
donât forget you are the jerk too, for having the gall to make them repeat the kill next week
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Your points do make sense here, and it brings up another thing as you mentioned â Need (Main Spec) vs. Need (Off-Spec). Spec wouldnât matter to transmog, so it doesnât fit well in that loot system at all. Tranmog was definitely shoehorned in as a roll, and it just fails spectacularly in a pug setting. I canât say for sure I 100% agree that they did it on purpose, but I do think they at least called it âgood enoughâ and were done with it and moved on to the next thing.
As for your example:
Yea, this seems, as you say, a no-brainer. Again, I would call this potential laziness on Blizzardâs part, but I have no more proof of that than we do that it was intentional. Either way would really serve their purposes â though, admittedly, your reasoning is more advantageous. Heck, it couldâve been both reasons.
Overall, I know that Iâm pretty tired of this whole argument and pretty much done with it. If anything, itâs taught me that a lot more people than I thought have no problem with doing something that I consider to be kind of a jerk move, and that Blizzard really just does not care one way or the other. It is what it is, I guess.
I appreciate the rational post, though. 
How long do they have to put their âneedsâ on hold so you donât have to put your wants on hold?
As long as it is wants to wants or needs to needs, people can, and likely will, see the 2 as equal, but when one compares their âneedsâ to your wants, or your âneedsâ to their wants, most will say their needs trump your wants, and your needs trump their wants.
I am not saying that my wants are more important then your wants, I am saying that my needs trump your wants, and your needs trump my wants. However, since I need very little, unless on an alt, I donât often roll need. I roll Tmog or greed for wants, which, again, makes our wants equal, but you use the system to give yourself the advantage over me. So if our wants are equal, why do you find it ok to roll need giving yourself priority, thus implying, if not saying, that your wants are more important then mine?
this still going? dang lol
the difference is their âtheirâ needs are never on hold, they are always welcome to roll. If you think you are putting your needs on hold but Iâm not , you donât understand the dice roll, we are both allowed to roll.
If you still perceive this as you putting your needs on hold, nothing would change since I just wouldnât be there if Iâm not being allowed to roll, and that spot would be taken over by someone with your same âneedâ.
you keep trying to put your needs above other ppls by calling yours a need and theirs a want
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Sorry, but you donât need that LFR piece. One could argue that no one actually needs anything in this game, really.
If LFR is your ceiling (as in, thatâs your highest raid), you are capable of running it in whatever gear youâre currently in. Obviously. So not a need but a want. You want to be more powerful, but itâs not required to do the content. So not a need.
If LFR is a stepping stone, it is the absolute worst way to gear up. Youâre rolling against 9-19 other people, locked to once a week. Go get better gear than LFR veteran on a weekly event quest instead. You can get at least 2 champion pieces a week that way. Want better drop rates? If you can handle LFR you can do low m+ for veteran gear drops, (just like LFR) but the drop rate is so much better. The best part is that you can do m+ all day every day and have a full set of that stepping stone gear in less time than itâll take you to get even a single piece from LFR. All of those items from the weekly event and m+ can be used at the catalyst as well.
So no, you donât need it. You want it, though.
By saying yours is a need but mine is a want, again youâre trying to suggest your interests and the way you enjoy endgame is superior to mine. So again, no.
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No, the difference is even simpler then that, it is I see your âneedsâ (unless you are on that new alt) as wants, and my needs as needs. So even if, in the long run, you passing (or more likely rolling Tmog) because someone else with my same need takes your spot, I can live with that as we share the same view of needs.
Maybe because it is superior, for me, not for you, but for me. I roll the way I do, so I can be true to myself and, preferably, not give up what makes me, well, me just for a short term or minor gain.
One last bit of food for thought, maybe some of us donât mind helping others out, so we have no issue taking our chances week in and week out or waiting till we can solo it (truthfully, for LFR, if geared toons could choose to do it solo, most likely would try). But for all your arguments about not queueing for LFR if you canât get what you are after, how is that any different then you getting all that you are after so you stop queueing anyways?
your argument is: I donât value how you play the game, and you should not have a chance to roll against me, I call that fairness
my argument is: we can just both roll, that way we can both play the game how we want and the winner of the roll goes home with the loot of the effort we both put in. thatâs what I call fairness
I never put your needs on hold, I am not claiming tmog is more important than ilvl, otherwise id be sitting here telling you you have to pass to me because my collection is more important than your alt or even main. (this is what you are doing, just in the opposite direction btw, Iâm sure you wouldnât like me making a thread like this.)
You are the only one trying to take my chances to ever get anything,
I, on the other hand cannot roll better than you no matter how i try, and i am not asking you to not roll.
Your needs are that you just donât want other people to win, unless you perceive their gameplay as worthy
the worst part is that you are asking me to respect this view, i am second in your world view, like if it were up to you youâd just disable my dice roll, but somehow i am the jerk.
I never would disable your dice roll to try to collect an item and not give you the same chance to get it.
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Ok, I have had it, ones like you keep saying ones with a social or moral code are some sort of moron, idiots, etc. I am not trying to take any chances away from you, the system you so defend does that if you DARE show any consideration for others.
You accuse me of not valuing how you play the game, have you ever come across as valuing how I play the game? Keep in mind, how I play the game makes it easier for ones like YOU to get what you are after because you do things I do not. If you donât value how I play the game, especially if it benefits you, why should I value how you play?
You know the saying âNice guys finish lastâ? it is cases like this that make it true.
If fairness is what is wanted:
- Tmog and need have to be separate
- canât roll for need if you have better equipped, in bags or any bank
Fairness to you stops at the chance to roll, fairness to me extends so those that need for upgrades get it over those that need it for vanity, and that those that need it for vanity get the priority over those needing for, shall we say economic reasons.
I donât want to take your chances away from you, I want you to have the best chance to get what you are after without, technically, taking chances from others.
However, I said it before, and Iâll say it again, with conversions, one can get every single tier look via WQs and even M+. the only looks you canât get outside of LFR are weapons and tier looks for classes you donât have (I have all classes). Tier is the only look I care about, so I get most of my mogs the same way most get upgrades. To add to this:
is that green robe a tier piece for a different class? nothing is stopping you from rolling the class that has the look as their tier and increasing your chances at getting it (though admittedly, you might have to get the look a like to use it on any but the class that uses it as the tier unless/until Mogs are unlocked for all on account) Like I can have the mage pant look on my priest cause I got the legs from the ED WB.
I would never disable your dice roll, at least not, if I am able, making the roll you should be doing a way you can win it without taking it away from me. I.E. I would freeking separate the need and mog rolls, disable need for you and for me if I am in the same boat as you, so we both have to roll mog, winner get the mog and the ones that can roll need get it without us getting in the wayâŚ
How about instead of accosting me without finding out what I am after, you freaking ask how I would give you and I the same chance to get the item we are after without getting in each others way?
Are you ever going to drop this holier than thou attitude and stop being a hypocrite?
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please find where I said this. Once
you literally are, I have to make a whole new character for you to be ok with me rolling on anything once Iâm past a certain point
I didnât defend it, I am simply not blaming other players, like you are. The system could and should be changed.
if you want to live by a certain code, donât use it to victimize yourself.
I value your gameplay at the same level i value my gameplay, in that we both should be allowed to roll on the stuff we want because we spent the same effort.
You are the only one not showing any respect for what i like to play the game for. You are asking me to put my gameplay aside for you, even though it will change nothing for you, since I will just not be there, or have to jump additional hoops to protect your feelings.
thatâs not my fault or my choice, i am not asking you to do anything for ME. Stop trying to perform a service i am not asking you to do and then trying to make me feel like i owe you something for it. This is like being hounded at a stoplight by window washers who wash your window against your will and get angry when you donât tip them, thanks but no thanks, I can wash my own car.
you arent being nice, you are being vindictive.
no one is arguing against any of this, only against you treating other players like you are because of the state of the current system.
again thatâs you deciding what the game should be played like and imposing those values onto me without respecting what I want. Since we cannot agree on what the game should be played like, all we can do is accept the dice roll, but only one of us can do that it seems.
your belief system, under the current loot system, can only end with me not ever getting anything else if i try to use my main character, and would have me jump through hoops to bring an alt to protect your feelings on the matter, i ask no such thing of you.
then stop trying to argue that am putting my needs above yours, because if i agreed with you id have to stop rolling on gear for mogs, thus taking my chances away.
Feel free to keep asking blizzard to change things so we can both be happy, but stop blaming me for the situation we are in and trying to change how i play the game, for your benefit.
idk what you are trying to say here, i exhaust every venue i have available to complete my collection
i would do the same but you are trying to make me actively not roll in the meantime.
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Well, excuse me, but maybe I would not treat others as such if I felt they would back me up in getting the system changed so everyone is happy. Instead of the ideas and such I have had, you, and others, have focussed on the negative aspects of my posts.
I can accept that, under the current system, you have to do what you do to get what you want, but if we are going to get Blizzard to change the system, we need everyone we can get behind the ideas.
Sorry for how I have been coming across, it just rubs me the wrong way when I have one thing in mind, I.E. improving the system, but people focus on how I feel under the current one and how what I want, under that, affects them.
A lot of this back and forth could have been avoided if one of us, myself included, took a step back and tried to change tracks by either pointing out that the end goal is changing the system (me) or asking how I really feel about the current system and how I would change it.
To answer that last question: I feel the current system enables people to be jerks to others and enable the greedy to get everything, which goes against both my nature and the idea I have that people are, at the core, good all around.
Also, keep in mind, Karma can be a real thing, so rolling Tmog instead of need might get you want you want quicker, maybe by getting you in a group that has my values or at least one that has no one that needs for upgrades or for Tmog.
I do this so I can vendor it and or disenchant it. I probably wouldnât do this if strangers in this game mattered to me but itâs just cross faction pvers who Iâm realistically never see again. So I can get gold or I can get nothing. easy choice.
I have posted my own ideas in this thread about how to change it, you didnât give me any credit either, but I am not angry because that was not the topic of the thread. I went off topic by offering solutions, the thread was about the the entitlement players feel to ask others to pass for them, or in your case how entitled I am for wanting to roll on an item I worked to get.
ok but that wasnât the topic of the thread
make a new thread. I am sure your ideas to solve the issue might be good.
I never lost sight of the goal, but I want people to funnel the effort into making better posts instead of harassing other players for liking an aspect of the game and acting superior because of it.
I have never felt slighted when someone takes an item I needed, I was once a poorly geared character too you know, I just never focused on who was rolling. I understand other people can be more sensitive though.
I donât think I need to worry about LFR stuff, when it comes to heroic raiding I respect the rules set by the raid leader and I am happy to bow out if they donât fit my needs.
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I find it very cringe when ppl just take loot to vendor, but you paid your 15.