I can’t actually say when the Zandalari’s attack on the Pandaren took place in relation to the expansion of the Kaldorei Empire. The Zandalari attacked 11,900 years before the Dark Portal, and the Dark Trolls found the Well of Eternity 15,000 years before the Dark Portal. But we don’t have a specific date as to when Azshara came into power.
We have this statement during Mists of Pandaria, but it also doesn’t offer specifics:
We opened a portal to this land using some ancient scrolls we had found that predated Azshara’s rule.
Instead of clashing directly, they both planned to stab each other in the back, according to Chronicle:
In truth, both leaders plotted betrayal. Zulathra believed the Zandalari could steal Lei Shen’s godlike powers once they learned the mogu’s secrets, and the Thunder King schemed to enslave the Zandalari the moment they ceased being useful.
Azshara was most certainly an evil person. A racial supremacist who mind controlled an entire civilization and eventually attempted to enact genocide not just on one group of people, but literally all groups of people that weren’t Highborne. But there’s no indication that she started having people purged until she had gained Sargeras’ partnership.
Oddly enough, as we saw in Kul’Tiras and Nazjatar, since her fall at the Well of Eternity, Azshara has shifted focus from racial purity and now just wants to rule everyone.
This is true, but we know that Eldre’thalas was founded 12k years ago, which is a city that we know she had founded. And she was the monarch at that time. So the expansion must have happened at some point before that. Which firmly places the zandalari-pandaren war after the it.
I’m not sure when Eldre’Thalas was founded. I did not find a reference to 12,000 years before the Dark Portal. I found a reference to 1,200 years before the Dark Portal, that being when Tortheldrin bound Immol’thar to regain their immortality (though this does make it so Night Elves did not die of old age without immortality even after 8,800 years).
Do you know where it’s stated that Eldre’Thalas was founded 12,000 years before the Dark Portal?
Built twelve thousand years ago by a covert sect of night elf sorcerers, the ancient city of Eldre’Thalas was used to protect Queen Azshara’s most prized arcane secrets.
The source is the dungeons page from the old wow website. It’s also mentioned in the wow comic “killing ground”
Also in chronicle it’s said that Azshara had them explore etc, and specifically mention Eldre’thalas as one of the settlements built. Which is why we know she was at least queen already by 12k years ago.
To note, however, Eldre’Thalas was not in Troll territory. None of the cities Azshara founded were, though Shandaral was right at the boarder of Drakkari lands.
The mag’har vs lightbound situation could be the perfect scenario where both sides have their version of what happened and it would be up to individual people to decide who was in the right or not
Correct that none of the cities specifically mentioned by name in chronicle were in troll territory.
That said I have a hard time believing the fighting and founding of other cities like Suramar, Vashj’ir etc would happen at a later date, especially considering that we’re told that the night elves used night warriors (as well as magic) to do it. I just don’t think the night warrior would be such a mystery if it happened so close to when our current nelf chars lived since they’re so long lived.
Personally, I’d put the expansion around the 12k mark, Zandalari were just dealt a very heavy blow with lei shen and almost the whole of Zandalari leadership dying, we know that the kaldorei were building fancy cities and developing at the time, not a stretch for them to want to get more prime real estate. Still somewhat far enough to keep the expansion mysterious from our current living nelf characters.
Also explains why the Zandalari would be so desperate for land just a hundred or so years later trying to cash in on the old mogu deal.
Edit: I found that the temple of Elune (now tomb of sargeras) which is part of Suramar was also created 12k years ago after sealing a wound in the earth, according to this interview.
And that the Highborne Astrolabe from Suramar also date back to 12k years.
Which dates Suramar to at least 12k years as well.
This clearly shows that by the time of 12k years ago they had started expanding into troll land. And I think this supports my theory that the war and expansion happened very much around 12k years ago.
There are several cited examples from Chronicles 1 that refute this claim in this thread. I am eepy though, not enough energy to compile them myself right now.
How can you be not interested in Conquest when you conquered almost entire world?
What kind of mental gymnastics is this?
How can you look at one map then look on another and claim with straight face that it wasn’t a very greedy conquest.
If you all agree that Azshara was very evil queen, then why you refuse to acknowlege that she did conquer almost entire Azeroth? Killing lots of people on the way.
Suramar likely predated Azshara, as Chronicle describes it as the following:
The city of Suramar became the center of night elf worship and home to the Sisterhood of Elune. This order, composed of female night elves, dedicated itself to venerating the moon goddess. The Sisterhood’s priestesses had a hand in nearly all aspects of early night elf civilization, from acting as spiritual leaders to helping defend their burgeoning territories from outside threats.
This would indeed also match up with the idea that the Night Warrior was what first allowed the Night Elves to gain grounds, especially considering that Suramar was in what was Amani territory.
Worship of Elune declined during Azshara’s reign as she pushed the culture to focus on the arcane instead.
I found the interview:
They do say that a wound opened up where the Temple of Elune would be built. But they also said that at that point the Highborne had already gathered all of the Pillars of Creation. That sounds like the Night Elves had already been on the upside before twelve-thousand years ago. Though Blizzard never touched upon what that wound was again, that a wound opened up where Suramar is does not preclude Suramar having been established before the wound event.
I did consider this, but decided not to include it because it does not say that the sisterhood was founded in Suramar, just that it became their home, it also does not mention a date for this. And none of the earlier high priestesses that go far back are mentioned along with Suramar.
Either way, it’s nice to have a date that Suramar is at the very least 12k years old.
And who knows when the night warrior was used, either before or early during Azshara’s reign. So many questions.
It is highly unlikely that the Night Warrior was used during Azshara’s reign. There are plenty of historical records from Azshara’s time, while the former Night Warrior’s name isn’t even remembered. Had the Night Warrior’s power been used during Azshara’s reign it also would have undercut Azshara’s efforts to diminish the influence of the Sisterhood. And Elune’s power would still be at the forefront of the Night Elf people’s minds, not having a reason to focus on the power of arcane when Elune could provide so much power already.
While unlikely, I can see it happening very early during her reign when their arcane magic was not as refined. The terrible cost of being a night warrior would also be apparent as it kills the user. Azshara seeing the power firsthand could also be one of the reasons she wanted to diminish the sisterhood.
Still this is just speculation.
That the ritual was dangerous did not deter more Night Elves for trying. Tyrande was the only one to not be killed by the ritual itself in all the attempts to invoke the Night Warrior since the first Night Elf that was successful.
