I absolutely LOVE melee SV. Two ranged is enough

This is objectively not true since Hunters were very explicitly defined as a ranged class since the beginning. The original 2004 WoW manual is pretty clear that Hunters are distinct due to their use of ranged weapons. That’s the very first thing in the description. Melee isn’t even in the description.

You can’t just make up your own definitions of “hunters” and use that in arguments about Hunters of WoW. Yes, it makes sense for hunters in real life to have and sometimes use a melee weapon (although a ranged weapon is almost always preferred in the actual “hunting” part). However the Hunter class of WoW was officially established and defined as a class that uses ranged weapons and that’s the definition that matters when discussing this class.

Weak argument. Most people have tried Survival and other melee specs.

If someone doesn’t like coffee, you don’t start recommending different cappuccinos, lattes, and espressos. They’re probably not going to like some specific type if they do not like coffee in general.

No, it isn’t, actually, because only 2 of the ranged specs use a ranged weapon which is a very different style of combat.

Meanwhile, there are thirteen specs that use a melee weapon. Twelve, if you discount Feral. You’re not really in a position to act like ranged DPS players are being greedy here.

The issue people like me have is twofold.

Firstly, I don’t think ranged weapons are explored enough. BM and MM really don’t cut it on their own. I’m not asking for 13 ranged weapon specs, but I do think there is enough variety in ranged weapon combat to have 3 different specs, especially given one of those is pet-based. That’s what we had before Legion. Whatever your personal definition of Hunter is, the WoW Hunter was the class that encapsulated all forms of ranged weaponry and it was that way since the beginning. Things like adding poisons and explosives to projectiles is very common in RPGs; a staple of ranged combat, if you will. It only makes sense to have a spec that is based on that in WoW. It’s a really good way to explore that fantasy archetype. That’s why we have specs in the first place.

Bundling all of that into a couple of useless Marksmanship talents is a tremendous waste of potential. It’s indicative of a lack of creativity and interest on the developer’s part when all they make is new melee DPS specs yet they struggle to come up with another ranged weapon user even when they already have the foundation.

Secondly, the double standards. Like I said, there are 13 different flavours of “swing a stick” in this game yet apparently there can’t be three different “shoot a bow” specs? It goes further than that, though. Look at Warriors. What is fundamentally different between Arms and Fury? Single-handed v.s. dual-wield? Ultimately they are both rage-based physical DPS. That’s fine, though, because they are both different-enough takes on the Warrior archetype. Look at Rogues. THREE specs that are all some variety of stealth, duel-wielding, and poisons. That’s fine, tohugh, because you have a spec for each of those things. Look at Warlocks. They all use fel magic and demons, but they use them differently so it’s fine. Yet suddenly we look at Hunters, see three different takes on ranged weaponry, and say “nah, that’s not enough”? It doesn’t make sense and it reeks of selective criticism.

The core gameplay difference of Survival and Marksmanship was that Survival was sustained, fast-paced, and focused on DoTs while MM was slower yet burstier. That’s pretty much exactly the same difference between Affliction and Destruction. You even have the pet specs as alternatives (Beast Mastery, Demonology). Yet it’s fine for Warlocks but unacceptable for Hunters. The only argument I’ve heard to excuse this obvious double-standard is that the spell animations of Warlocks makes them easier to distinguish, which I really don’t find to be convincing given that I’m more concerned about how a spec feels and plays rather than whether some other player can tell one different flashy effect from another. Hunters are being arbitrarily singled out, no doubt about it.

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Not this again… MSV is a Hunter Spec.

It’s in the features.

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not this again. i tried both versions of melee SV and tbh I don’t like any BFA hunter spec.

the problem is people like you come to the forum to mostly troll people who prefer ranged and say crap like “haha old spec sucked melee rules!!” and it’s annoying and nobody cares.

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While I certainly don’t expect you to agree with Bepples, this response is dismissive, yet his argument was excellent. The one piece you pulled out to quote was also true and your response didn’t counter it, even though it seemed like it was intended to do so. Of course MSV is a hunter spec NOW, but the class as a whole was defined as a ranged class from the beginning. Not just in lore, but in the hearts and minds of 12 years of people playing the game. Obviously they changed that going in to Legion, but THAT is the topic of conversation (again).

This is meaningless. I’m not sure what argument you are intending with this statement, but it doesn’t change Hunter from being a ranged class. Melee was added to Hunter only because they defined a bow to only work from 8 yards out. It makes a sort of logical sense, you certainly don’t shoot with your bow when someone is in arms reach (though you do with a gun), so it made sense to add melee capability so that Hunter’s would not be completely helpless in that range. It was also a unique and interesting playstyle. But every tool in the Hunter toolkit from the beginning of WoW, no matter which tree you specialized in, was designed to get the hunter back into range to use that bow. All the way up until a complete change in philosophy in Legion.

Many of us feel that change was inappropriate, at least how it was implemented. I am not against a melee Hunter spec. I think that is an appropriate fantasy to cover in WoW. But I don’t think any can argue well (and certainly none have) that two specs out of 36 that use a ranged weapon is sufficient to cover the fantasy archetypes available there. Obviously they haven’t been able to do so. Hell, I don’t think they have sufficiently covered a single one atm.

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No, his argument is not excellent.

If he admits that SV as it is now is a Hunter Spec then I will concede.

He made clearly stated, factually based points with logical connections. That is the basis for all good argument. Just because you don’t agree doesn’t mean it wasn’t an argument that deserved proper logical, and not dismissive, response. An argument doesn’t have to be true to be good, especially on a topic where it is difficult to ascertain the truth. If you have counter-arguments then make them on the points you wish to address. Anything else is just poor argumentation (in this case dismissive). I know you can do it, you do it often. There is no reason to be inappropriately dismissive here just because you have made a similar argument in the past.

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That’s not the reason. He is going off of old information, information that changed when 7.0 hit. He has been very adamant that MSV is not a Hunter Spec. It’s not that I just disagree, if I thought that it was a good argument then I would say it. It’s not, we’re in the second expansion since the Class has permanently changed. Like I said, if he concedes that MSV, Current SV is a Hunter Spec I will concede.

As an objective third party: his point made sense and you are coming across as a grammar challenged, tantrum throwing baby.

None of us made blizzard change survival. Be mad at them if you must be mad. Don’t lash out at someone for enjoying a spec blizzard made because you don’t like it. That’s childish.

While you’re at it why don’t you get pissed at people for liking Bfa demo lock because you liked metamorphosis better? lol.

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  1. Hunter is a class in WoW
  2. Classes have specs
  3. Hunter had a spec choice of MSV

Ergo: MSV is a hunter spec definitionally. It’s hard to make an argument when you are arguing over the meaning of the word “spec”.

Regardless, Blizzard has spoken. It may be a bad spec, but MSV is clearly a hunter spec.

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I have never made an argument that it was not. What is your reply intended to communicate?

This part. It’s hard to offer counter arguments over whether a spec in game is, in fact, a spec. I believe the person you are addressing is making this point.

They are saying Beoples (sp) won’t even acknowledge MSV is a true hunter spec which is silly.

Edit: it’s Bepples. My bad.

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Yup, and I was making to a person who has been pretty open about his hatred for SV to the point that he does not count it as a Hunter Spec and uses that as an argument that it’s not actually a Hunter Spec.

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But the argument he was addressing was not making the point that MSV wasn’t a spec. Where does this even come in? Who was saying this anywhere? I am not saying Bepples has never said this. I don’t know, and I don’t care. But the argument that Whim was objecting to was not saying that, and neither did I. Maybe we should drop the argument that never happened?

Might as well.

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Fine with me. I think the spec argument at question is an ongoing project of Bepples , thus it was brought into this convo, maybe erroneously.

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To be honest, half of this forum is about bickering about the same thing over and over like children and the other is basically bullying others about their opinions, if not reasonable.

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watch out a big dumb dwarf just walked in.

literally said i don’t care if people like SV. i only dislike annoying people.

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Yes, it makes sense for hunters to have a melee option.

I have tried the spec, both in Legion and in BfA.
No, I still hated it. I don’t like melee combat. All there is to it.
No amount of playtime on that spec will suddenly change my mind on this.

These have nothing to do with if someone wants to play a ranged hunter spec or not.

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I was upset when they took away melee for hunters in MoP. I thought it was interesting and unique switching between the two. As mentioned above, there was a certain logic to it. But that playstyle was not recaptured in MSV. As I said before, if it retained a full ranged toolset and let me use a bow effectively (with bow animations), even if that was not the optimal DPS rotation, I would like it a whole lot more. I did try it though. I tried it quite a bit. I gave a fair bit of feedback on it during the beta.

I really wanted to like it, and I liked that they were giving it some ranged back, but the end result just was not to my liking. Not one bit. It didn’t feel like the old hunter. It didn’t feel like an Aragorn style Ranger. It didn’t capture any fantasy, or invite any playstyle that I desired.

Having said that, none of that is my argument against it. In fact, I’m not even sure I have an argument against it per se. My argument is what they did to the Hunter class to implement it. My argument is that they need to fix the Hunter class, and a part of that is mending the deep wounds they caused when they cut off more than a third of the player base by the deletion of a favored spec. It wasn’t just “a mistake.” It was idiotic.

As for not liking melee, I like melee just fine. I have mained Warrior, Ret, Feral, and WW monk over the years. and dabbled with every single melee spec. I don’t not play SV because I don’t like melee. I don’t play SV because I don’t like SV.

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Agreed.

I too actually liked melee as a hunter when it was the earlier days and you switched to it once an enemy got too close.

Still remember the days in TBC when I ran around with two ZA 1h weapons at the waist and also carrying that ranged weapon(if only it was visible even while sheathed)!

But even though you have ranged abilities in MSV, like you said, it’s not intended to cater towards that hybrid play in the same way as in the past. It’s now intended to be a melee spec that has abilities which can be used from afar.

Some might not consider this change particularly noteworthy, but to others, it makes all the differences in the world as to whether they still like a spec or not.

Like I’ve said before, we like different things.

My thoughts exactly.

It’s not that we have a melee spec, but more about how it came to be.
To put it lightly…

Yes! (I would’ve left a few particular words out but overall, YES!):blush:

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