ahh someone else noticed
The funny thing is its not just me saying this, im just the one you seem to remember which is funny because Bepples also likes to only bring me up aswell. Funny how that works
incognito mode
Its interesting how its always a pleasant exchange too
You know who else types out novels for a response? 
I would agree with this, sort of.
I’ve said this before during our discussions. The primary focus of the original SV talent category wasn’t to provide a unique, fully realised playstyle option, in the sense of how we see core specializations today. The primary focus of SV back then was to provide you with options to improve your survivability, through utility and defensives. The reason they gave it talents that improved damage at all was, in the case of melee, to give us something for the times where we found ourselves stuck/forced into melee range. And for anything that improved ranged throughput, it was purely for the sake of balance between categories as, after all, our main role was that of a damage dealer. They have outright said as much during prior class discussion panels when on the subject of talent category design.
The fact that anything that improved our throughput within the SV tree was either generally applicable(regardless of fighting space), or melee-oriented, was because that was the only place for it, based on the primary theme of each category.
Anything related to pets was to be found in the Beast Mastery category.
Anything specifically designed around a ranged weapon was found in the Marksmanship category.
Anything that did not fit into either of the above, or was generally themed, was found in Survival. And again, due to the sake of balancing categories, they had to have something that improved throughput in SV as well, despite the primary focus on utility and defensives.
Having said that, nothing above would take away from the fact that our baseline class-wide toolkit was designed in a way which favored ranged dps over anything else. Within the scope of our primary role as a damage dealer, if you wanted to perform to the best of your capabilities, you did so by focusing on ranged attacks.
No matter what talents you picked in the SV category, or any other category for that matter, focusing on ranged attacks was how we performed at the highest level. This is why we keep arguing that SV was not a “melee spec” in Vanilla, by design.
Like I said further up, we can argue about how to apply the term “profile”. In the past, you’ve frequently and passionately argued that SV was a “melee spec”, where the intent was to head into melee range to fight enemies. You’ve put a lot of focus on how the design was based on the notion that SV was designed to be a PvP spec, and not generally suited for all parts of the game, despite how the devs have told us different about class design philosophies on several occasions.
Many of the arguments you’ve mentioned above, in previous replies, you’ve brought up before, including in our prior discussion which I referenced just above here.
Forgive me for thinking that you’re still arguing based on that mindset. Regardless, the fact that the class had melee-oriented abilities in the past does in no way point to how current SV, being designed to focus on mdps as a primary, is in any way “going back to the roots of Vanilla SV” as Vanilla SV was a talent category with a primary focus on survivability via improved defensives and utility, not an “independent” playstyle, or anything of the sort.
Well then…
If all you’re after is for us to acknowledge the fact of how the class did have melee abilities in Vanilla, and only that, sure. Like I said before, noone here has ever argued otherwise. It’s a moot point really.
I’m honestly not sure why you even want to keep the discussion focused on that particular subject since it’s not, nor has it ever been a point of contention.
In that case, this discussion on movement restrictions is even more irrelevant.
The number of encounters or scenarios where unlimited movement(incuding for ranged dps) is even close to a major advantage over other ranged dps is VERY small. In most encounters, situational utility focusing on enhanced movement capabilities(temporary) is usually more beneficial than simply being able to move around at base speed all the time while attacking. Our combo of Aspect of the Cheetah and Disengage really doesn’t do much to provide us with an overall advantage, if you include our general lack of movement restrictions.
While the hunter class in general have fewer restrictions to movement than other ranged classes, in most scenarios, it’s a matter of annoyance or QoL rather than something that’s worth mentioning when comparing vital perks or balance. In theory, unlimited movement is very much a perk to have but, in practicality, within the scope of PvE in general, it really doesn’t do that much towards making us more desirable.
TL;DR - Even if they were to add a modern version of RSV back into the game, without movement restrictions, it wouldn’t really change the above. In a PvE setting, no movement restrictions simply isn’t that vital to balance outside of niche scenarios.
I don’t…
Your implication was noted, which is why I wrote more than simply saying “no”.
Especially seeing as this isn’t the first time you’ve brought this up…
Ehm…yes they do? If they’re not ranged, they certainly have to position themselves if they want to reach the target. And, while we as hunters are ranged, our pets are not, and we have to rely on them, and the pet AI, during encounters. Classes without a pet don’t…
If someone playing a petless class gets CCd or snared, etc., they usually have tools to get out of it. As hunters, if our pets get CCd or snared, unless we have a Cunning pet with Master’s Call, we usually have no way to free them from such thing(with a few niche exceptions).
Looks at the times of random pet deaths in M+ or raid encounters where the pet gets targeted by an attack which really is unavoidable or very unpredictable in design.
Anyway, it’s not only about having to move out of mechanics or not. That’s not the only point of focus in terms of balance.
True but, as we know, heavy front-loaded damage and burst is generally the more favorable option. And, like I said above, unlimited movement certainly isn’t such a major perk to have in pure PvE content, more so a QoL thing which makes it more fun and/or fluid to play your spec.
Even in PvE, some boss abilities do silence/interrupt us as well, makes us unable to attack. Either way, how relevant is this point of yours to your prior argument of the value of zero movement restrictions? As, in most PvE encounters, you don’t usually have to deal with enemies interrupting you or silencing you.
Way to dodge the point…
You’re joking. This is such an absurd take. Look at all the times people complained about Quaking interrupting their cast. Look at all the times any movement related mechanic causing rDPS to plan their movement how irate people get.
Why do you think so many people are drawn to BM? Because there are 0 cast times and you are fully mobile.
Why do you think until very recently it was always smart to stack rDPS compared to mDPS? More uptime on bosses. Less worrying about repositioning. Full movement while attacking for RDPS fully removes any sort of “drawback” rDPS has.
In your very last post to me you said aspect of the fox was removed because it was “too OP” to chain it together. This granted freedom of movement while casting. You even said it yourself it was OP to move while casting just moments ago.
It’s an extremely valuable perk for both QOL and responding to mechanics.
Fights in the game where this actually matters are so far and few between I don’t know what to tell you. Pet AI hasn’t been terrible for years.
Not to mention, everything you’re talking about (snares, roots, positioning, distance) also applies to melee DPS.
The only thing that CC’s pets in the game right now, from what I recall, is the pbaoe stomp the large treants in brackenhide do. Other than that, pets do not get impacted by CC abilities from trash or bosses.
Go ahead and list some
You’re 100% wrong here. It’s a gigantic perk to have.
Name some that uniquely apply to ranged hunters and nobody else.
Tbf its still pretty bad lol but its waaaaaaaaay better than it was back in the old days
lmfao is this real life?
this entire thread is just one crab pulling the other crabs back into the bucket
I disagree. However, you are free to express your viewpoint, nonetheless.
I will challenge you to extend that statement to each Hunter Specialization, instead of preferentially suggesting that only SV lacked in identity. In my opinion, 31 pts into SV did critically change the gameplay and situational response of the base Class, thus defining its responsive behavior in a variety of ways which characterizes an identity.
Unfortunately, I feel we have both strayed from strict adherence to the facts and have entered subjective territory, which is rather dangerous in the field of debate. 1000+ post Flame War incoming…
Dedicated Melee Huntering was a successful option in Classic PvP–a path less traveled, but you cannot find a quote where I suggest shoehorning either ranged or melee dps onto other players with preferential bias towards either end of the spectrum. I’ve only ever suggested a hybrid approach to the class, the position of an opportunist.
In some cases, protracted engagement in melee range against melee classes is the better option, such as to either deadzone an Intercept Stun which meant certain death should it land, followed up by a quick Joust maneuver through the hitbox of the Warrior to safely and briefly exploit our rDPS profile. In other cases, it might be better to Counterattack and kite such as in situations without defensive cooldowns.
Here’s a word-for-word example of what I mean:
So, people get annoyed when they get interrupted by an ability. Makes sense. Still doesn’t tell us anything but exactly what I said earlier that “it’s an annoyance or QoL thing, rather than an actual major advantage which would motivate you to bring such a spec to most encounters specifically because such a perk”.
In short, even if, on occasion, you encounter a scenario where it would be convenient to not have to worry about getting interrupted, that by no means equate to how zero movement restrictions becomes a mandatory thing, or a major advantage in terms of balance.
If planning for future incoming mechanics allows you to perform as well, or [usually] even better than someone, like BM, who doesn’t have to in the same way then, by definition, no movement restrictions is nothing but a convenience, it’s not a major advantage. Historically, even on fights that require(d) a lot of movement, we can see that BM usually does NOT have a major advantage in terms of performance.
That had less to do with the topic of movement restrictions, and more to do with ranged vs melee, and what mechanics there were. And again, it was a point of convenience, not always a major advantage in terms of pure balance.
There are more ways to balance classes and specs relative to eachother, other than through more or less restrictions to movement capabilities…
Really…?
Are you really equating the state of an ability which could be chained(multiple consecutive uses) to allow an entire raid to move while casting for extended periods, to the point where it allowed you to essentially completely ignore mechanics or entire phases, to the idea of introducing 1 more spec which wouldn’t have movement restrictions?
Please, do tell me, has there ever been an encounter where the preference has been to stack as many BM hunters as possible, simply because it lacks movement restrictions? Meaning that you’d intentionally exclude other ranged dps classes just to have the advantage of unlimited movement from BM?
Or more accurately to your point, is it such a major advantage in terms of performance that this is done on a frequent basis?
It is convenient yes, but in terms of performance, actual hard numbers, is it common to substitute BM hunters with other ranged specs/classes just to have that unlimited movement?
Hint…it isn’t…
Yep, as is the case of no movement restrictions.
May I remind you, through all this, your argument was based on the presumption of providing a major advantage to performance. Unless that is actually the case, your argument is irrelevant, and is nothing but your own biased view.
It is a major advantage. You have to be daft to deny this on purpose. If you don’t believe this is not a major advantage, why do you think every ranged DPS in the game (sans BM) has cast times they cannot move from? It is clearly a design intent to limit mobility of rDPS. It is clear that full mobility is considered an overwhelming perk.
Because BM does very poor damage currently and also offers 0 unique utility compared to other rDPS. In any fight with involved mechanics, (if it doesnt int your damage output) BM is considered.
Your whole premise is that unlimited movement is a minor perk at best. If that is true, then raid wide unlimited movement wouldn’t be oppressively OP.
Please see my above point. BM brings 0 unique utility that other RDPS dont bring and also do not deal strong damage.
Please, do go on.
Keep talking, you’re almost at the point. What mechanics existed that incentivized Ranged over Melee?
BM usually deals poor damage and has 0 utility.
So, in that video(which is from TBC btw, not Vanilla), that hunter was using regular ranged attacks, and when forced into melee, he/she(you?) opted to make use of melee abilities like raptor strike and mongoose bite, and wing clip, until he/she(you?) could continue with ranged attacks.
What part of that is the “unique identity” you say that SV provided?
Anyway, there’s no need for such a “challenge”. I’ve never argued that the vanilla talent categories, either of them, provided actual unique identities, with vastly different gameplay styles. And no, I’m not including hybrid classes in this statement, as they’re dependent to fill different roles based on which category they ventured into.
Eh, even going further back to tiers where BM performs well, it still wasn’t common to exclude other ranged classes/specs in favor of stacking BM hunters for the purpose of having access to a spec with zero movement restrictions.
Again, provide me with a single tier where this was actually the case…
All throughout history?
I had a potato of a computer back then. I wanted to play WoW at launch back in 2004 but my old Windows 98 computer couldn’t hack it, so I stayed on Battle.net playing Warcraft 2, Starcraft, and D2:LoD until about 2006 where I upgraded into a much less rotten potato from Walmart. I was finally able to enjoy Vanilla WoW in it’s latter days, but I couldn’t record videos until late 2007 which is when I built a $1,200 rig that was finally able to capture decent gameplay footage.
If you want my opinion on the subject, the key point of differentiation between the Hunter Specializations was how they each reacted to offensive pressure. At a distance of about 8-35 yds, each Hunter Specialization enjoyed the highest damage ceiling that the Class offered and might prefer to remain at this distance (This is the typical argument made against intentional use of mDPS, which is perhaps a fair argument).
Unfortunately, under heavy offensive pressure, that high sustained rDPS profile falls significantly in damage output due to the loss of Auto-Shot, Aimed Shot, and Steady Shot, which forces even the most skilled players to studder-step Auto-Shots and rely heavily on instant casts.
When the target eventually catches up to within the 0-8 yd range which includes the deadzone and melee range, rDPS was nullified. And here’s where each Hunter Specialization begins to express themselves through various avenues and behave differently.
A Beast Master would attempt to control the situation through the use of his pet in Intimidation, or further express themselves through the pet with BW/TBW to prevent CC effects in his attempt to regain distance.
A Marksman would rely on his Ranged Weapon to cast Scatter Shot to regain distance.
A Survival Hunter would rely on his Melee Weapon (Parry) to cast Counterattack which roots the target in order to regain distance.
Under offensive pressure, a Beast Master is characterized by his relationship with his pet–A Marksman with his Bow, and a Survivalist is characterized by how well he performs in Melee Range relative to the other specializations.
Only a Survival Hunter could win a battle against dedicated melee specialist classes while spending 75% of the fight in melee range.
Allieddeath vs Pazuit (Gladiator Rogue)
Allieddeath vs Warrior (Eww, Goldshire! Please wash your eyes afterward):
Right now in Classic, if your pet can peel mobs off of you in melee, you can get the range you need.
The thing I learned so far is that AUTOSHOT actually was GOOD. Because without Raptor and Mongoose, you can’t do much besides an autoswing that doesn’t compare to a warrior or (le gasp) Paladin. Even in SV, there’s not much for melee fighting in that department. The PET does a fine job of that on its own.
Not to mention that SV had talents back starting with TBC or Wrath that further enhance ranged combat.
Even in the 20’s so far in Classic I don’t feel that Hunter overall has ever been much of a meleer. Ironically in DMines, I had to go melee right before VC because I didn’t bring enough ammo. Fortunately my buds who got me through outleveled it a bit.
Been there myself, sort of.
When I started back in 2005/2006, the first few months I was playing with extensive screen tearing due to not having the correct drivers installed(computer was too old), and back then, I barely knew what to do with that stuff. I meant to start in 2005 when the game was released in EU, but hesitated to invest fully, due to my computer.
A few things.
I think we have an issue when it comes to the definition of “having an identity”.
These do not in any way amount to independent identities or playstyles. They’re just different forms of utility which are categorised based on what part of the class’ toolkit they’re focusing on. Neither of which are crucial to group-based PvE content, or even solo content. Usually, they’re not even usable much/most of the time. They’re also not the signature traits of each category.
I’ve posted this in a reply to you before IIRC.
Beast Mastery - contained literally anything and everything that was designed around pets and bestial aspects. Be it damage, utility, defensives, flavor.
Marksmanship - contained talents solely focused on improvements for your ranged weapon + a raid buff(TSA). Damage, efficiency, utility, etc.
Survival - contained talents focused primarily on defensives and situational utility, Tracking, traps, pure defense, melee + general damage(for the purpose of cross category balancing).
In short, nothing in either category actually amounted to an independent and fully realised identity or playstyle. It was all literally just adding to a common class-wide toolkit, concisting of the same attacks which you wanted to utilize regardless of which category you went into.
Love the free food idea. I like how you think maaan.
If only that was a thing everywhere, yea? Too many jobs I worked at, free food isn’t guaranteed…
Even so, “Will Mod For Food” cardboard sign outside Blizzard HQ?
I’m not even parsing well and I was out dpsing people in Heroic Aberrus that were 10ilvls above me. I really think the “tier list” of classes only really applies to the “best of the best” players, and is completely irrelevant to like 95% of players, at least in PVE.
Yknow the more this thread goes on, I feel like the problem with the hunter class is the players just as much as it is the spec design 
The 95% are expected to follow and get advised by the other 5%.
That’s an easy fix. Make Hunter class a “hero class” type of arrangement where you have to fulfill certain in-game requirements to have one. Make it to where only the players that get around the better have access.
So if you’re a brand new player, Hunter is locked out, and Blizzard may say in the tooltip, “You have to unlock such-and-such.” It could be certain milestones or achievements, or having a different toon at max level.
I wonder how many people would be cut out of the class that way if it went live today. It won’t be me, that’s for sure, and it was, I’d be one of the fastest to unlock Hunter.
And that would be cool because that means that any Hunters you see from then on actually did the work to earn and unlock it.
This is not what I meant by my comment. I meant that DESIGN WISE, many hunters are completely torn and defensive on how the TALENTS AND ABILITIES of hunter should be. This leads to feedback that is fragmented and often hostile. It has nothing to do with having the class locked behind a level wall or anything silly like that.