GOT wasn’t a game - it was in this case a television series, and when they were just adapting the existing media, it was just fine. Great even. It was when their writers took the reins that things started to go off of the rails.
But, I’m unsure as to why you think that smaller scale questing content is in some way worse or undesirable compared with the overall franchise stories. Questing content gave us stuff like Pandaria’s initial content patch, the Legend of Stalvan, or dozens of little looks at parts of the culture that the franchise wouldn’t be able to spend time going over. But, I do have to get hung up somewhat on this comment:
The only narrative that matters is the one that naturally is written when a player plays their character - the decisions they make about what they represent. The personal struggles in dealing with a particular quests, or learning how to overcome a difficult challenge. The back and forth of a battleground or the winding path of a raid. The surrounding lore of that turns what otherwise would be a boring jaunt through a series of blocks and polygons into an immersive, epic adventure. I am not simply in a video game fighting another character, I am a Warden fighting for my people against this Orc Warrior whose bladestorm isn’t going to help him today.
Or I would if the game didn’t go out of its way to demotivate me because they were more concerned with the story that they wanted to tell instead of what the objectives of the game are. That’s where the laser focus on overall world narratives has gotten us.
So again, mechanics aren’t the issue here - the issues are coming from the narrative side of things.
That is not true. World building is the most important thing when it comes to an MMO. Now, you might not think that is a narrative, and you would be right, it’s not in itself. But it is the foundation for ANY narrative that could happen in this world. The player’s personal narrative is worth nothing if it takes place in a world that it is not immersive.
I do see the point you are making though, and I think there certainly is a place for that in the process. But that needs to be built upon a solid foundation of good worldbuilding, otherwise it is worthless.
Eh, I dispute that worldbuilding is narrative per-se, but we are heading in the right direction. It’s what turns a series of shaders and pixels and polygons into a foreboding castle or a battlefield. In an MMO, I think questing has to serve that worldbuilding - to help to construct the sandbox in which we play out that narrative. It creates the arena, the arena in which we craft our own story - whether we’re doing that mostly subconsciously as we chase achievement in a World First run, or whether we’re actually the sorts of people who sit down and think through character backstories.
My problem with the focus on the overall narrative is that it takes that out of our hands, and often times destroys the sandcastles we’re building because the gamerunners are more focused on themselves than they are on the product. It’s like a parent taking their little boy’s toy dragon and using it to smash the little girl’s sandcastle, and then trying to use it to scold the little boy for liking violent things while telling the little girl that she’s greedy for wanting the sandcastle.
You’re just going to be left with a pair of upset children doing that. Let the sandbox be the sandbox.
Sorry, I’m on my phone so I wasn’t reading every post.
If someone thinks the Night Elves weren’t at such a strength on the first place then yes, they wouldn’t need to be reduced.
And again, It comes down to World building. That is different than an overarching narrative mind you, you can have core world building and still have these “sandcastles” you are referring too.
You seem to think that it’s the questing experience that does the world building, when it is the other way around. World building determines what quests you’ll find, and where.
And Night Elves being a strong and independent race on Azeroth, the sort of quests you’ll find there would be much more in the service of that independence, and and bit more removed from the faction rivalry.
As I said, it is not a matter of fairness, it is a matter of what you’ll find and wear. Different challenges. Different narratives. Different subject matter. Making all the races on an equal playing field really doesn’t serve any narrative purpose, except that Blizzard wanted an overall narrative to tell.
That’s the only reason I wasn’t addressing you much. I might disagree, but I find your point reasonable in spite of that. But if you and Ak disagree on some important aspects of reality like that, they’re two different arguments.
I mean, I could see the idea that Worldbuilding is iterative. Prior content lines up with current quests, which further build on the existing world. Sure. I’m also with you on the independence point.
But, regarding the narrative purpose of balance? It depends on whose narrative you’re talking about. If you’re telling a Tauren player: “You are inferior to Orcs”, that absolutely impacts their narrative, and in a way that makes it less desirable. And sure, it’s great for the Orc, but the Orc and the Tauren are paying the same amount, and both deserve to have their choices respected. Hence, balance becomes critical.
How we balance different elements is another discussion, but again, we have to be fair to people.
And you implying that Thunder Bluff has a military might comparative to the combined Orc Clans of the Horde?
And if that is the case, would that necessarily make Tauren “inferior”.
I don’t think so. There is a Troll raid just about every expansion, sometimes multiple. Yet, people still play trolls.
Hell, Gnomes were living in another race’s capitol city, and has the smallest section of that city dedicated to them. I am pretty sure Mangi’s Throne Room was bigger than Tinkertown. Yet, people still play gnomes.
I don’t think that makes them less desirable. And even if it did, a lot of things make a race less desirable. Not a lot of people play female tauren… Would you say Female Tauren should be changed to be more aesthetically pleasing so they are on the same playing field as Night Elves or Draenei? It’s the same thing.
I don’t think you’re going to run into a situation where literally every person stops playing a race, so I don’t see that as being a good argument. I’m more interested in what deters people from playing a race, and whether that’s a good move from a franchise perspective. I’ve mentioned before that the proportion of people playing Night Elves in 2019’s classic was cut in half in comparison to what it was in Vanilla several times in the past. Obviously half of the population still is playing Night Elves, right? What’s the issue?
Well, what happened to the other half?
I’m a part of that other half. I’m not technically “here”, as you know. My sub was for a limited purpose, it runs out by the middle of next month. Why? Because I as a competitively minded player saw the game repeatedly hammer into my personal narrative “you are inferior to your enemies and subservient to your allies, no matter what you do” - and it became a bigger and bigger hill to climb to cancel that feeling with my gameplay. And you know what - if you approach me and say “hey, play me at soccer on this field that’s got a 5 degree grade in my favor”. I might say “Okay, no big deal”. Then you might say “okay, how about 10 degrees?”, and I’ll complain, but I might still do it. If you come up to me and propose one with a 45 degree pitch in your favor? I’m going to say “You’re out of your mind, that’s completely unfair”. Someone else might not though. The point for them might be when you start proposing sixty degrees.
You know where I’m going with this, you’ve taken microeconomics - everyone’s got their own inflection points and adjustments in factors overall bring us closer or further away from that point where we say “enough, I quit”. Bringing it to Night Elves then? We’re missing that half in part because the lore ran portions of that population over their inflection points - they either rerolled, left, or they were new members of the population who would have gone Night Elf, but won’t now because the situation looks different.
I am not denying that Blizzard have treated Nelves poorly. I am disagreeing with your solution to the problem. Continuing with the Tauren example.
Let’s say Blizzard pulled a hard right to the furry community with a Tauren redesign. Tauren now don’t have so much of a hump, they are far more anthropomorphic, far more aesthetically, and perhaps even sexually pleasing.
And I think this is relevant, because I think the sex appeal of certain races plays a role in why they are played. To what degree? I am not sure, but all the most popularly played races tend to be “Prettier” than the less played ones.
Do you think Tauren players would like that? Even if the overall Tauren player base rose as a result, do you think the people who chose to play Tauren in Vanilla WoW are the sort of people who want their character to be sexualizied?
Of course a player base isn’t a monolithe, some tauren players might be thrilled about it. But I am willing to bet a lot of Tauren players play tauren specifically because of the way they look. And in this case, those players are certainly having their personal narrative ruined by Blizzard, despite the overall Tauren player base increasing.
I’m sure it’s a factor. As for the question of what the Tauren fanbase would find appealing - that’s where I’m going to have to punt to them. I certainly think that you should consult with the existing core of people who like something. Previous content is in a large sense an advertisement - and going back on those in a way that uproots previous choices of the people who responded to that advertisement is something that has to be done with extreme care.
I can’t envision that translating into a situation where the Tauren player would want to feel inferior to their Orcish ally though - to ensure that we stay grounded on this.
This is where I’m going to return to the three psychological needs that video games primarily address:
Competence
Relatedness
Autonomy
Aesthetics aren’t on that list. They probably have a lot to say about whether someone makes that choice in the first place, but if we’re going back to what narrative does? I imagine an existing Tauren player is going to feel a whole lot worse about say, the narrative suddenly making it clear that Tauren are say, suddenly the Orcs’ slaves than they are about how another playable choice looks. Why? Because that narrative choice attacks those pillars, and fundamentally rewrites the player narrative.
I think Aesthetics playing into all three.
I want my character to look competent, either as she is, or the way she solves problems.
I want my character to be relatable, and an easy way to do that is appearance.
Autonomy, I want to be able to self-govern the appearance of my character. If that was to change, my autonomy is broken. I know people who quit wow after new models came out, because they didn’t think their character looked like they should.
You assume that, but you really have no basis to make that claim. People might be more impacted by what they see every time they play the game, as opposed to background lore that isn’t impacting the mechanics of the game as obviously.
Wait, hold on a second. Wouldn’t aesthetics be part of relatedness? I recall a couple of people excited about the new skin color options because they were able to model their WoW character more closely after themselves, especially blood elf players in particular since they’re most humanlike horde option. And if you broaden the aesthetic appeal to culture, some also find an appeal in seeing representations of their own background portrayed in a game.
Aesthetics factor in, sure. But they do so before the personal narrative even begins to be written. It’s not the same consideration as huge narrative changes are.
As for you saying that I lack basis… Well, it’s funny that you should mention - because while you were typing, I went back to my classic study.
Now, visiting the Tauren - a lot of their cultural focus has worn away. They’ve neglected. Their allied race was kind of samey, and among the Horde, the Tauren usually get it militarily, including incidents like Taurajo. Then there’s the bull in the room, Baine, who most people agree completely sucks - all of these are factors that we may roll into the personal narrative.
Want to take a guess at the identity of the only Horde race to suffer declines in representation from Vanilla to Classic?