Human "bigotry" and Forsaken "backstabbing"

Lore Story Forum
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Garithos was gonna ruin the peace no matter what. You can claim the forsaken had the ability to go here or there, but in reality it wouldnt have worked. Garithos wanted Lordearon, which the forsaken also wanted, it was their home in life, and to be sent from it immediatly after reclaiming it would never hold water. Peace was never gonna work, especially since Garithos had no means to actually hold the ruined city, both from the inevitable forsaken assault or the return of the scourge.

You can say the forsaken ruined the relationship by killing him, but i say that both sides had no intention of having it last beyond the war against the scourge.

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22

Because the Night Elves have done nothing but attack the Horde from the moment they met? But the first time they stopped trading was because Varian had a tantrum in Undercity and started a war with no actual plans of fighting it. And it was at Undercity where the Horde was bringing it’s rogue element to heel and clearing their name. Guess that didn’t work out too well for them in the eyes of the Alliance.

23

We know the dude can be mind controlled.

Possession is ever harder to resist.

If memory doesnt fail the trade only 100% stopped when the Twilight Hammer stepped into the pictured and played both factions against each other.

Instead of trying to clear their names, Garrosh jumped the gun.

Listen, can we not derail the thread?

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In that case blaming sylvanas being an idiot with no long term planning i feel is better then blaming the forsaken for ruining it. The only difference is Sylvanas was going to have a human thrall in her midst, the moment garithos comes into contact with an alliance mage or priest who regonizes the issues. It was a hostile action and betrayal, just not murder.

Frankly im not sure whats worse, mind control or death.

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25

In the very same way ppl point to the alliance when Jaina and the silver covenant jumped the gun with the purge (even though varian, the high king, was aiming for a completely different thing) I can and absolutly will blame the forsaken.

Nevermind the fact that the forsaken as whole followed Sylvanas’ orders to slaughter everyone.

Hey, brainwashed for the greater good sure beats a slaughter.

Also, now that i remember Saiden Datrohan (i think it was him) was possesed by a dreadlord and it took a long while before everyone took notice. Hell, thats a problem even now, Shaw got replaced and only the other rogues noticed.

Forget about the banshees, Varimathras could have done it even better (as she didnt know he would later betray them).

Sylvanas could have at least given it a shot, is what im saying. As things went down they were just as bad as garithos.

In the end (at least until reforged comes out), we dont know if peace between the living and the dead was possible… what we know now is that sylvanas ruined it by jumping the gun.

And then again later in BtS :stuck_out_tongue:

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Garithos didn’t like elves because he believed they were indirectly responsible for the death of his family and all of Blackwood. He wasn’t a racist or xenophobe; in fact, to use those words is hugely inappropriate. He had dwarves in his company and made a pact with the undead and honored it.

It was only the elves he had distaste for, and not with unfounded reason.

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27

That’s all whitewashing that was retconned in later. He also loved puppies and built thousands of orphanages (per Chronicles 9). In WC3 he was a racist turd who betrayed and tried to murder THE PLAYER before the player later got karmic justice on him by betraying and murdering him.

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Yeah, sorry, im not stepping anywhere near this landmine.

You’re on own buddy- you brave, brave soul :joy: :joy: :joy:

You know, for a moment there that actually gave me pause and I almost believed it.

I dont know what that says about the state of the story lel

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29

In all honesty I don’t believe the Forsaken shot first against the Alliance, Garithos shot first against the Alliance. He was destroying what was left of the Alliance by pushing the Elves out, and then proceeded with the Dwarves. His men, and even men from Dalaran were being also radical, which makes it even worse. He was convincing people to be racist and bigoted, which was making matters from bad to worse. Ironically the Forsaken did the Alliance a favour by slaughtering him and his men, and you did state this with Garithos deserving it indeed. My point exactly was the fact that it was a good thing what the Forsaken had done, and that Garithos shot the bullet to the Alliance first. It kind of turns into a law vs morale issue at that point.

Having said that the parts that bothers me is how much does the Alliance know about the Forsaken betraying Garithos? It is never mentioned at all, and only mentions Alliance going deus vult on the Forsaken. If it was common knowledge that the Forsaken did betray Garithos, then the question should be followed by “Why did the Forsaken betray Garithos?”

Which leads to my second bothersome, NO ONE ON BOTH SIDES DOES ANY RESEARCH INTO EVENTS, AND WHY THEY HAPPEN! Which is very necessary in the game of politics. Politics is just as important in warfare. The Forsaken betray Garithos? Why did it happen? Oh Garithos was a poisonous disease in the Alliance breaking us apart one by one? That seems a logical reasoning to do it, can’t trust that person he was bound to betray the Forsaken and us, the Alliance. Just like how it was so illogical and bad that Cairne was foaming at the mouth that Garrosh “killed” Nelves, when he usually does research and reasoning. Oh wait the Twilight Hammer set Garrosh up, yayy for research.

Now you bring a good point, should Sylvanas have mind controlled Garithos and ruled from the shadows? I actually verily agree on that point. It could have made an interesting story and a cool empire, the human puppet on the throne being ruled by a banshee queen. Is it bad? Yes however if she doesn’t then the humans will turn on the free will Forsaken and slaughter them Ooohhh just would love to hear that tale. It also would be in Sylvanas’ character “the ends justify the means for my people!” That is a real gray decision area.

The main issue however was the way WC3 was written. It was an obvious tell tale sign that Sylvanas was going to be a villain. Her end speech to Varimathras spelt it all out. She was citing her speech to slaughter the living to a demon, while undead were eating corpses they have just slain, standing on a pile of corpses, in front of burning buildings! might as well added lighting in the background and have her twirl her evil moustache while at it. As great as WC3 was, the story was made for a single player experience. It wasn’t made for a faction MMO experience, and I do believe it was stated by Chris Metzen that the Forsaken were added to the Horde just to be their evil faction. I wish I could find that quote, though it might have been damage control from Activision Blizzard than anything.

Regardless watching the WC3’s ending it really showed the Forsaken were written out destined to be another unplayable evil faction, there were last minute changes to make them a playable faction.

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30

Interesting how much of this was dependent upon him being mind-controlled by a dreadlord, and the minute he was free, he started making decisions in the Alliance’s benefits, such as working with Sylvanas to liberate Capitol City. He was still a racist jerkward, don’t get me wrong, but he put that aside for the greater purpose of the interest of the Alliance of Lordaeron, and what was left of it.

Also interesting how sewing discord among allies is basically the MO of Dreadlords. I know a lot of people like to think Garithos was only controlled after the stuff with Kael’thas, but I’ll wait until we get that in canon writing before believing it. For a man who loathes undead and elves, working alongside an undead elf rather than living elves seems pretty hard to believe, without some influence working on him previously.

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31

To be fair, those are two very hard characters to discover if they are possessed or not.

Saiden was one of the first four Paladins, and Grand Crusader of the Scarlet Crusade. With Tirion, Uther, and Turalyon all out of the picture, Saiden was a paragon and a beacon of hope in the ruins of Lordaeron. Everybody would follow him. And by the time anybody would discover his possession, the Scarlet Crusade would’ve already gone down a dark path, as he would’ve already placed key people in key positions. At that point, calling out that he was a Dreadlord would be blasphemous, and said accuser would be tortured and executed.

Matthias is a bit different, but he too would be a hard person to discover if he was possessed. He’s the leader of SI:7, so he is almost always working from the shadows. Only recently has he come into the light. Previously, very few people would ever see him, or really know anything about him. It makes sense that the only people who would notice a change in him are those that are his competitors and rivals, as they would do their best to keep as many tabs on him as possible.

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32

I sorry if it makes me sound like jerk, but that part your post edged me closer to death. I mean you’re technically not wrong, its just… the way you framed it was…

However, the rest of your post was pretty much spot on- i even gave it a like.

Thank you for posting in my thread, buddy :wink:. And thank you for an insightful read

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33

I feel like we as posters often forget that the characters don’t have the same meta-knowledge we have. Sylvanas didn’t know who Garithos was or about his bigotry when she decided to have him killed.

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34

That was all in wc3.

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Because in this world of SJWs and PC, the first one to scream racism is always right.

Ain’t that right, Jussie

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Im not from the USA, here in paraguay we call each other (forums wont let me swear, but its the derogatory term for gays) and (forums wont let me swear, but its the derogatory term for black ppl) just for banter and its all good either five minutes later or the next day.

Im just not willing to defend Garithos morally, even if he was technically in the right before he died.

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37

How could Sylvanas ruin the chances for peace by killing Garithos if the Alliance didn’t know about it?

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If they had any sort of tangible proof -be it by mind control or otherwise- that the living and dead could work with each other then i dont see why wouldnt the Alliance take them back, after that its just a matter of letting the plebs come around.

How do i know this, you ask? Bc Alliance DKs have been a thing since wrath.

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39

Nobody, and I mean nobody, ever seems to give any care about the fate of Garithos. It is never given as some sort of casus belli to wipe out undead. Not for killing the Forsaken diplomats or later dealings. At the end of his day, I don’t think his death/death of his soldiers matters in any greater sense. Nobody cares.

I literally only remember Kristoff mentioning it. Now he’s dead.

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40

I already brought that up in the OP tho.

As far as everyone is concerned everyone just vanished into thin air.