How's Horde RP here?

Moon Guard
103

Theres more to the Horde than just fighting. Just as theres more to the Alliance than just Stormwind.

Just because there are no guilds for it, doesn’t mean there aren’t options of alternative engagement.

Lordaeron Night Market - A Horde run black market done monthly, around for over a year now, open to everyone!

Shadow Sermons - Religious based roleplay based upon the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow, has been done in kicks and starts. I hosted 10 months worth of sermons and prayer services before needing to stop due to IRL. Since has kicked off two smaller offshoots.

The Left Hand Path - The monthly gathering of unsavory magical types much akin to the Black Harvest, hosted by Horde but open to everyone.

Eternal Court of Lordaeron - A nobility group focused on Lordaeron and its development, accepts both living and dead.

Kosh’harg - A once a year multi day celebration of orcish culture and ritual, which actually did conclude this year in a big party in Orgrimmar.

These are the immediate examples which come to mind. Not at all meant to be a gotcha, but just to list out that Horde has non-combat roleplay available - but again, we hit upon the problem of we do not publicize ourselves as much as we should.

We can only put out as much as we put in. Realistically, if there were a Pandaren guild, if there was a Nightborne guild, if there was any alternative Horde guild, I think a lot of us would be more than happy to include them and celebrate them! But we just… don’t. And I’m not about to create an alt to make one of my own to run it myself for others to join so that opportunity is there. But we need to be on top of letting people know that we exist! We’re friendly! We have neat stuff going on! Horde is neat, guys! Blizzard may have forgotten us, but players are here doing their best!

But, I will say, the ‘Horde is dead’ line that keeps getting paraded around does not help and just serves to make us more and more bitter because it is hugely insulting to us who put a lot of time and work into what we are able to bring. It’s either because they didn’t know or because they want to be purposely malicious for the sake of old dramas and grudges. I wasn’t here for Coalition, but gosh darn if it doesn’t still keep popping up because people love to nurse on drama on both sides.

I think this thread has become something of a microchasm of some of the various feelings and attitudes which may have led to us become a little more bitter and insular. I will say though, I am somewhat embarrassed by some of my peers and I hope maybe they can learn to tame their attitudes. There are people in here who also have made excellent points on both ends and I appreciate what constructive conversation there was had here.

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104

Okay then what about the Trolls? What events cater to them? Or to the Nightborne? The Blood Elves?

Most of what you mentioned are presumably more for the Forsaken. And we’re going back into the issue that there’s not enough people for that to happen. There’s not enough people to cater to other races or other events or other guilds. Realistically, things are not fine in Ba Sing Se. You can do the whole Juli thing and say “There is RP in Horde side” but examining the deep side of rp, it’s suffice to say that there’s not enough that’s going to be able to sustain the Horde for much longer.

Not that WRA Horde is anything to swing a bat at currently. But it’s not at the number or consistency that other people and even new people feel comfortable with even saying “hey there’s stuff to do.”

And those guilds that are active are affiliated with the one Horde server. Whereas comparitively on MG Alliance there’s several guilds that are either affiliated with one or more projects or none at all. I’d say that’s a huge problem.

I’m a realist and not one for drama. There’s a lot of holes in yours and Bans statements that makes me pause and go “hmm…something is not right here.” And as Vanaelia stated, it’s downright dismissive to say anything otherwise. This isn’t stoking any drama or anything but getting ya’ll to realize that maybe there’s a bit of a vacuum at present that needs to be fixed and maybe do something now versus later.

Or who knows, maybe Blizzard will finally decide to merge WRA and Moonguard together which would boost both Alliance and Horde and we can finally say that “yeah the Horde isn’t dead.” Because currently, again that’s not the case. You can put up whatever illusion you want but the facts still remain.

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As I said, these are events that I know off the top of my head, which, given I’m Forsaken, it makes sense they’re more ‘geared towards Forsaken’. I know that others are cooking other events for other races and I’m sure they’d love to add to the list. Guilds like Spearskull Tribe, a troll guild, were embraced whole heartedly but IRL situations make them unable to continue growing, things beyond our control. What I said was not the entire body of work the Horde provides - a taste.

As a Forsaken player who enjoys Forsaken culture, I can support my fellow players but I’m not about to start rolling alts and creating things for roleplay that I do not myself want to engage in. I can provide what I can provide, but I cannot cater to everyone. No one person can, not if they want to be able to enjoy the roleplay they like. Each of those listed events I didn’t just attend, but helped in no insignificant way.

If there is a niche that needs to be filled, sometimes it takes others to fill it. I can’t force people to create a Nightborne guild or event if it’s not something they wish to roleplay. But I can ask people to respect what we do have and invite their voices to join ours.

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106

Bringing up constructive criticism isn’t being rude to what you’ve done nor is saying that Horde is kind of dead. If it were true that Horde rp is thriving then it would show in that way as Vanaelia had suggested.

You can hide it under the rug all you want, that’s fine. But again it’s becoming clear to new players and even old players that would want to give Horde rp a try, that things aren’t alright.

You’re being pedantic and dismissive. As is your right I suppose. You’re the big fish in the relatively small pond. Whatever you say goes.

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Hardly a big fish. I’m not even an officer in any guild, just an eager member doing what I can for a community I care about.

I feel like you aren’t really grasping what I’m saying but it’s fine. I’ve said what I wanted to say.

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108

I 100% get where you’re coming from. I’m a bit more interested in elf stuff, so I wouldn’t be able to tell you off-hand the larger dwarf and gnome goings on, for example.

Also, I want to commend you for listening to some dissenting points of view without dismissing experiences. I do think both sides of the argument agree on one thing (even if the agreement is getting a bit lost in the messaging)

See?

But, I don’t mean to single you out. This can’t just be something put on your rotting, undead shoulders. I get that a lot of Horde RP is a bit more inclusive. I am not going to pass any judgment on why that might be. I simply do not know about some of the politics that you have mentioned.

My general go-to is to assume that people are not stupid, though. Nor do they work actively against their self-interest. That being the case, I’m going to assume there is a valid reason why it is like this.

But I will say that if the Horde community wants to grow, it cannot continue to be this exclusive. The answer to ‘How do I find World of Warcraft RP when I am playing World of Warcraft’ cannot be ‘Open up Discord’. It’s like…

…have you ever been about to buy something from a website, and then they ask you to sign up? You know that feeling? Have you ever closed the website and not made the purchase?

I don’t want that for Horde RP. I don’t want it spoken of in hushed tales around campfires or over too many drinks at a dive bar. I want it to be healthy. I would like to be able to go “I feel like RPing on Horde, today” and not “I hope I can find RP on Horde, today.”

That’s what a lot of Alliance players (and possibly Horde players new to RP) are dealing with. It’s fine to have lulls in a schedule, but people have to have some kind of confidence that that something might actually happen. If you take away the personal attacks that some of the Alliance posters have used? That’s the main theme. It’s not “You guys suck”, it’s “I can’t find RP at all”.

And that is something to which the Horde RP community as a whole will need to give some serious thought. I see forum posts advertising Horde guilds and the like. Which is all well and good, but I don’t see a lot of that in game.

I’m not saying Horde RPers need to take my advice, or anything. But it might be time to really sit down and take a genuine, possibly difficult look at the issue. Have some meetings. Plan some events. Reach out to Alliance guilds.

The stories are interesting. But I have to imagine you guys might want a bigger audience. And maybe extra actors.

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109

I don’t want to speak for anyone, but I think this is a slight mix-up in communications. Yes, earlier in this thread, a fair amount of the responses from the Horde community were not exactly civil.

But I think we’re getting more to an issue that’s more about logistics, and less about intent. It is a tremendous ask to have one person make guilds for stories they may have no interest in. I, myself, don’t have interests in certain storylines, so I wouldn’t be able to really advance them.

But as I said, I think both of you agree that the Horde RP population does need to grow, RP wise. More people need to know about what’s going on.

Here’s what I can say: The perception of Horde RP is that it is dwindling, dying, or dead.

I am not saying that is the case. I am saying that is how many people perceive it.

I think that’s one thing I appreciated about Sanari’s response, about recognizing not a lot of their events are publicized enough.

I might be misreading it, but I don’t think they’re suggesting that everything is 100% hunky-dory, now.

And I appreciate that effort. I always appreciate people opening doors and extending invitations.

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110

You’re very right in this. But it comes again to how do we meet in the middle? Orgrimmar is a wretched place to be in and many people prefer other places, and our culture is simply one that is different as a result of this. We do try to return to the city, but many of us have grown very tired of staring at the Valley of Honor, which is where the majority of us congregate if we do. It’s just not something that I personally like to do - stand around in a city I don’t even like waiting for rp to come to me. Especially as a Forsaken. I don’t even -have- a city to stand around in anymore. Thanks, Sylvanas.

I don’t want to start rattling off reasons why we can or cannot, but the way I see it and with my finger somewhat on the pulse - somewhat - there’s a real uphill battle here that’s aggravated by poor writing on Blizzard’s part as well as the fact that Alliance feels a great deal easier to sort of just fall into. They’re the ‘good guys’. They’re the nice people. The chivalrous knights, the enigmatic flavors of elves, the alien warriors of the light, the inventive and Alliance-loyal gnomes and the boisterous dwarves. Horde on it’s face is incredibly niche. We’re various flavors of noble savages, the vicious undead, the explosive goblins who are loyal to gold. I would say elves, but with Void Elves, many many people have gone over to Alliance to play as High Elves. What elves we do retain are precious and I love them.

Many of us work to the bone to supply what we do have, as well as partake in larger server events to show that we are around and exist. We try to match the absolute machine that is Alliance and it’s a sincere struggle. But we do our best and it appears we need to work harder, but I get back to the original problem, that is that people speaking on our behalf and saying we don’t exist just perpetuates the entire problem.

Horde Vanguard exists because there are strength in numbers. We are able to come together and energize each other better than if we were alone and competing. We need to work harder to get ourselves out there and I will be exerting what little influence I have to do that, but we need people to stop speaking for us when they either don’t really know the actual story of the Horde community, or because they have a grudge. It doesn’t help, it really doesn’t. We aren’t the whole community, no, but we are the lion’s share.

EDIT: This got real wordy! I apologize! I appreciate your comments, though. Also typos. Ack!

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111

When the ((ooc brackets)) start getting busted out, I generally remove myself from the situation. Maybe I’m just unlucky but I have never once seen a situation involving more then 2 people go into the ooc argument in /say resolve amicably or even a “agree to disagree” and get back into IC territory. At that point it’s a wash, not worth the time or effort. If I want to argue OOC stuff with a bunch of dorks I’ll do it on the forums as God intended.

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112

Maybe the issue is that you’re trying to match the Alliance. And maybe that’s where part of the problem is. What works for the Alliance isn’t going to work for the Horde, and vice versa. Both are two different and unique factions. What works for one isn’t going to work for the other.

I think it’s time for the Horde to find the thing that makes them different and stick to it. Then maybe people will decide to go back and rp there again.

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How could have I missed that. People like you are horrible. Glad to know Nexus is a bunch of xenophobes. Yet you can’t even play a Forsaken. Also Peaches, come on, what a terrible name for such an “elite” roleplayer as yourself. You’re the only cringe here.

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We do that and people poo poo on us and say we’re dead or dying. It’s a vicious cycle. We either break ourselves trying to match the Alliance with less people and resources, or enjoy our style of roleplay and be told we don’t exist because we’re not readily available all day. It’s really just… it’s a tough one, and we’re doing what we can.

Also do we really need to wheel back to those comments when actual productive conversation may be happening?

Actually, I think at this point, the wheels have just been spinning and spinning and I’m going to dip before this becomes another hate fest rather than actual problem solving.

And no, I don’t think those comments were very cash money.

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115

You know what Sanari you’ve been more than down to earth. I’ll say it again, this is not a community effort problem. It’s too much bad apples inside your community that make it so that hordes need over a decade to recover. People say it’s RP but honestly it feels more like a weekly DnD sessions when we observe how horde do their RP. Make that ticket more available to people. And we’ll stop saying you’re dead. Otherwise, yes it’s a dead and closed circle jerk.

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To expand briefly on this, there are us around who’d love to be a part of more things, but we’re already so limited in time and scope due to our own lives we can’t make things happen - and I was a very make things happen kind of person in my younger days (I’m not even that old :sob:). I’ve officer’d guilds, created and led guilds, led RBG and raid teams, look over GM roles, became a strong pillar of a dying RP community (RIP Emerald Dream) to try and keep it afloat, but I just can’t any more. At least not unless I shrink other real life responsibilities that, frankly, I am unwilling to. My priorities have shifted over time, and I think a lot of ours have.

So even then I, as someone who’d love to see a lot more and dip their toe in different communities and stories, am forced to be selective and give what limited time I have here or there in already existing spaces. I don’t have the capability any more, or at the moment, to lead another troll guild, another orc guild, a merc guild, elf guild, etc etc. Im sure this extends to many other would be Horde RPers too who are maybe spending 60-90% of their time Alliance side or in their current guilds Horde side. They’d like to be a part of more, but are unable to create it and those who create things, sustaining things, are hard to come by.

I don’t really have a solution to that here (well, actually I do but then the ghost of McCarthy might come for me) but just want to throw out another potential hurdle.

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Because there’s not an overlying presence. Keeping to guilds makes it seem like it’s dead. Much like people say that WRA Alliance is dead even though people rp in Duskwood, however, it’s during a time when most people don’t rp or can’t stay up to rp. You have to have more than just one thing to cater or try to entice people to come back.

Horde has the Orc Festival and Dance of the Dead, Tournament of Ages, Worlds Faire Carnival and Conquest stuff sprinkled inbetween.

It’s not that people are saying what is or isn’t, as Vanaelia said it’s the /perception/ of the Horde is that it’s dead. Perception is reality. What we perceive is what is truth to us.

And no one is saying that you personally or Imfernal or Bans has to lead another guild. But why aren’t there people doing such. What are ya’ll doing to where people don’t feel encouraged to make those guilds. Maybe look at what the Horde Vanguard offers and make a poll to see what people would like to see more and lay down plans encouraging them to lead those guilds.

You can help people set up a guild, but there’s nothing that says you can’t leave and lead them to their own devices. You don’t have to lift a hand. Just sign your name on the charter. Guild is formed, get out of Dodge.

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Of course, it’s very easy to make a guild. Why, I’ve made my own vanity guilds Horde side - in minutes of course, not days. It’s not hard. It’s not hard at all.

But filling that plate with meat takes a great deal more effort and that’s where I believe the communication is lapsing. I can make troll and nightborne and pandaren guilds until the cows come home, but supplying them with content to attract and maintain people is another beast that not everyone is prepared for. I know this after spending 10 months maintaining my own community for the Cult of Forgotten Shadow. It’s immense pressure and not something that can be easily tackled unless you really are passionate and willing to sink time into, which I was not able to at the end of it all.

When people do, such as with Spearskull, we are more than willing to help prop them up and give them what resources we can, but we are limited people with limited time and we want to roleplay as well, not spend all day creating things for people to consume and not enjoy ourselves.

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119

I laughed more than I should have at that.

I primarily play Alliance characters. It is not all I play, but I play them more than anything else. Speaking as a mostly Alliance player? I have said - and for those people who want to check this kind of thing, you can look at my post history - more than once that I hate what Blizzard did to the Horde with the writing. I want to think they are taking steps to mend that, but I will not sit here and pretend that being made to feel like your people are doing the same stupid things again is not a fun position to be in.

I held that stance even before I finished the Horde War Campaign in BFA. And after finishing that? Jesus effin’ Christ.

I know more than a few Horde RPers switched over to Team Blue because of that. They can’t portray orcs being excellent fighters without the Pandaria/Warlords debacle, they can’t make the Forsaken seem willing to make dark decisions with genocide, trolls are always villains, etc. It sucks. It sucks a lot. There’s a difference between wanting to play ‘a bad guy’ and having to play the bad guy.

I am stating this because I want you to get that I agree with you on this, and get where you’re coming from. I don’t think this is insurmountable, but I do acknowledge this ain’t gonna be easy.

From what I’ve seen in game, and what I see on the forums? These are the primary issues.

  • There is a belief that Horde RP is ‘dead’
  • The people on both sides - not Horde and Alliance, but ‘Engaged in RP’ and ‘not engaged in RP’ are feeling like they’re not being heard
  • There is an uphill battle to overcome with a stigma from both the in game writing, and some of the perceptions of player behavior/attitude
  • It is easier (for varying reasons) to RP as Alliance than Horde

I think these are very heavily connected with each other.

While I hate to say this? Some of the onus for one part of this is going to be on the side of the Horde RPers. I get that you’re protective of what you’ve done, worked your proverbial buttocks off to keep it going, and have some pride in what you’ve accomplished.

But you have to keep in mind that when you do things in locations where only a few people know about it? Then, yes, there is going to be a perception that it doesn’t exist. Closed doors, and all.

I have reminded people before that it’s easy to forget other people are experiencing something for the first time. Especially if you’ve seen it a hundred times. I would strongly suggest that the answer to Horde RP is dead be a bit more diplomatic. You don’t want to punish someone for not knowing something. That’s an easy way to get people to just never return.

JoeyNightElf: Man, this sucks. Horde RP is dead, lol.
Response: That’s because we don’t want you Legolas clone trying to lorebend your way into our group. Go back to standing in SW until you go to Goldshire.

This is maybe not the best response. I understand the urge (this is neither the first time I’ve used JoeyNightElf as an example, nor is it entirely fictional), but there might be a better way than lashing out.

JoeyNightElf: Man, this sucks. Horde RP is dead, lol
Response: Oh. I know it can be a lot harder to find, if you’re used to walk-ups. Horde RP is done differently, here. If you’re interested, there’s this event happening in this place. Or this one at this place. Maybe you can check it out, just to see what it’s about.
JoeyNightElf: Lol I can’t make those times
Response: Oh. Well, we post about some events on forums. Also, we have a Discord where we can help coordinate things. We’d love to have you.

That’s one reason I suggested a weekly event in Orgrimmar. You can have people yelling about it a bit before. And that’s when you can do a bit more networking.

My earlier comment, I realize, may have sounded like I was attacking people for using Discord, or some such. That’s not what I meant. It’s more…if you do set things up using Discord, or other sources? You’re going to have work harder than just, y’know. Standing. If you have an event, the people who ask questions are more likely to be amenable to using Discord. Since they’re already invested. Or curious?

As a side note, um…yeah. Orgrimmar is…Orgrimmar. So, I think an earlier comment in this thread mentioned places like Dalaran, or other easy to reach but not necessarily main places? That kind of thing might help for a base, or some such.

Thunder Bluff? The Tauren are big on giving people a chance, and I kind of remember them being called (at one point, things may have changed) ‘the spirit of the Horde’. I don’t remember the context, as this was a while ago.

But, yeah.

Diplomacy and marketing, man. Y’all need more butts in chairs. Look at it this way: The fact that so many people say ‘Horde RP is dead’ can serve as an indicator that they were, in fact, looking for Horde RP at one point. It’s not like the interest isn’t there, y’know?

Give it some thought, is all. Talk to others in the Vanguard. And take a step back, take a breath, and allow yourselves to be real with each other, and the situation.

I wish you the best.

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120

I don’t think you’re understanding what I’m saying. And that’s fine. I explain things weirdly as I’m direct. You’re trying to pick out the hidden meaning. I’ll try to clarify.

What I’m saying is exactly as I mean. When I say make a poll and see what things could be done better, I mean just that. See what people want to see. If people want to see more blood elves, then maybe try to cater to that. Have events in Silvermoon. If members are talking about making a Blood Elf guild or what to see a specific thing done with Blood Elves then try to encourage them.

I’m not saying for /you/ specifically to make that guild. Encourge those that would like to even if it’s a placeholder for a business. Everyone wants to rp, but to be successful it’s a give and take situation. And it’s more possible that the reason why there’s limited people is because the avenues that they interested in aren’t being explored so they decided to give up on it.

Because again, that’s their perception. If you want it to be successful, then you have to change that perception. Otherwise nothing is going to change ultimately. Until once again Blizzard says screw it, we’re merging all the rp servers together.

Which realistically would make sense. And help the population of both Horde and Alliance. It makes more sense than what another mmo did. They merged a European PVE server with an American pvp server.

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We don’t even have chairs :sob:

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Silvermoon has all the chairs. Still their chairs, duh.