Awesome! Keep spreading the word! Pass it to more and lead by example!
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Yep it’s been something I’ve been trying to get people to do since the first set of changes. It does call for a few active people to recall at points but it’s like the horde don’t know how to put together an offensive push if we actually defend as we go!
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I wish I was there in that Game, just reading your words bring images of a glorious battle!
Yes recalling is part of it at crucial points!
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I took a screenshot of the leader board it was such a spirit booster! We didn’t win any but that one today but in others we had some epic battles and got most of our objectives. A different world than yesterday!
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I can tell you this doesn’t work as a group of mine attempted it and it went pretty much as expected.
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Alliance went mostly SFGY with a few defending SHGY
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Horde went full 40 man SHGY and overwhelmed the few defenders
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Alliance attempted to hold SFGY for a few minutes but as horde kept crashing into us and with us having no reinforcements due to IWB choke now setup it was a slow losing war of attrition.
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Horde capped SFGY and proceeded to just hold the choke as they always do.
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You have no idea what you’re talking about. Alliance want to win, and for a while premade rush was the winning strategy. At the very basic level though, Alliance just want a chance to win.
The problem here is that when we start talking about alliance defense from the start of the game then the game is already over. SHGY is the worst GY in the game and literally can’t be defended. Once lost to the Horde, Alliance is pushed back to SPGY near the very north of the map. At this point, the SHGY and SH bunker act as a choke point that is near impossible to overcome. Game over.
The map is fundamentally broken at this point and cannot be overcome by a pug. Alliance and Horde PUG players more than likely act the same, except that every decision that a Horde pugger might make works in their favor which allows for an all-inclusive strategy:
- Take SFGY? Good idea! It will prevent Alliance from having a chance at getting south. If I fail, I’m back at our starting cave or IBGY nearby.
- Take SHGY? Good idea! It will be a forward operating graveyard for a push north. If I fail, I’m back at our starting cave or IBGY nearby.
- Defend IBGY? Good idea! It will prevent Alliance from having a chance at getting south, LTs, and towers. On top of that, it is the easiest GY in the game to defend.
Alliance on the other hand have a bunch of hard decisions to make that must be made in complete coordination with the rest of the team:
- Take SFGY? Less risky, but will require the majority of the team to push through Horde to get there since Horde can get to Belinda before Alliance can get to alliance-side SFGY ramp. Leaves smaller team at SHGY which allows Horde capture very quickly. If we fail, we’re back up north behind the the SH bunker choke.
- Take IBGY? Very risky, requires full team commitment and is difficult to pull off due to the number of 60% mounts that will get cut off on the ride. If we fail, we’re back up north behind the the SH bunker choke.
- Defend SHGY? Impossible due to the GY choke. Horde can attack from 180 degrees and have good LOS to fall back to. When we fail, we’re back up north behind the the SH bunker choke.
It’s possible to see now that Horde-side allows for a more individualistic approach to AV while Alliance-side requires team coordination. The win rate ratio comes down to the difference in allowable player behavior. The difference in allowable player behavior comes down to map design.
tl;dr Don’t talk about Alliance strategy when you don’t know anything about it.
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This plan would be decent if not for the Dun Baldur backdoor.
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Did you wipe them at the beginning and then continue to clean up the stragglers? It takes time for them (who Rez 10 at a time at IBGY) to choose one objective to push after being wiped. We also had several shifting between SFGY and SHGY to help with the continued defense. The focus was keeping them behind that line between the two GY until we had SF. If you have a pack of 5 or so that jump to farm npcs before SF is capped it can mean trouble for sure.
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Going sf results in the entire horde team following there, isolating you, and creating a 1hr turtle. Nice try. The game is not played the same way anymore and people need to stop trying to compare it to a completely different community from 15 years ago.
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I am seeing signs of life in my avs. Unlikely heroes rising and leading the masses.
After a week of straight losses, I was able to see the frostwolf relief hut in a game last night. We still lost but there was an attempt and I felt a semblance of faction pride.
We will find a way. Good writeup, OP.
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It is superior to take IBgy before SFgy.
- IBgy slows down the horde reinforcements by pushing their rezzers back to their cave. SFgy does nothing.
- It takes 5 minutes for IBgy to cap (once tapped) vs 10 minutes to complete the cap on SFgy. Because it takes so long to cap, you will probably lose SHgy long before you have SF, and end up not having any gy close by. Then you end up losing even SF to the Horde because they probably took SHgy so their reinforcements are much closer.
ALSO - SECURE IBgy before you go for the towers. You don’t want the people who get killed in the gy and tower attempts to have to try to get back to you from SPgy.
- Sometimes you can kill Lt’s in front of IBgy while you wait for it to cap. You can’t do that at SFgy. But use some sense. IF Horde are flooding into IBgy from their cave - don’t pull lt’s into the fight to make it harder on yourselves. Kill the horde first.
Bottom line - Far better to get IBgy than SFgy.
Snowfall is a trap.
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That doesnt work because it is far easier to defend IBGY for the horde since their dead respawn 100 yards away. Meanwhile, they will send 10 people to take SHGY. Good luck holding it with 5 people since they can attack it from two sides and pretty much bottleneck you in. Guess what the other 30 horde are doing? Yes, attacking you at IBGY over and over again. You won’t have time to mana up or heal.
I mean, it can work if you have a solid group and by that I mean a well geared one and with people that actually listen and dont overextend and or get themselves and others killed cuz they pulled extra LT’s.
If we go with SFGY the group needs to be prepared to move… ignore the LT’s and Towers and hit IBGY directly. But if you hit “M” you will see people spread out and fighting at FoS or by Galv or in IBT.
The horde will defend for the whole game and can really push with 10 people because of how hard it is to get through that IBGY choke point. Good Luck defending Dun Baldar when the horde can just wall jump to avoid our “best” choke point on the map. Oh, and why do our damn archers never respawn as the horde ones do?
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Unfortunately, due to the amount of slow mounts etc, you’re lucky to get 10-15 to IBGY in the first push, and then people pull the NPCs on top of it and we wipe way before the GY caps. This works, but not with the current groups who are actually queuing for AV. Capping SF and pulling Galv lts. there (for those who can’t wait for the cap) gives a chance. Snowfall isn’t the trap, SPGY is the trap.
I never said to attempt to take it with 5 people. That would be insanity - unless they were all stealthed and only capping it to disrupt their rez wave. AND those people would have to be well geared and skilled. That is not the picture of the current crop of pugs in AV. (I don’t mean that some don’t fit that description, just that probably not enough do.)
I never said to go to IBgy in the first push. That would probably be suicidal with a pug.
Either the whole group hides at SHgy and you kill all the Horde before you make a push to IBgy, OR if your group has some geared and talented stealthies, a small number of them head down to IBgy. They tap it to push Horde rezzers back to the cave. This slows them down. The Alliance rezzers at SHgy are back in the fight before the Horde rezzers can get there. Given there are now more Alliance than Horde at SHgy, the group kills more of the remaining Horde.
Now we can afford to have some from this group (fast mounts preferred) head down to IBgy to reinforce the stealthies. But we must have at least 5-10 left (alive - not future rezzers) at SHgy to prevent any Horde stealthies who hid, from capping if we desert it.
it’s extremely important to hold on to SHgy until we can secure another gy. We do not ever want to lose SHgy before we have IBgy. Taking out IBgy slows down the horde - even if we are not able to hold it initially, it still breaks their momentum, and we don’t lose ground.
Trying for Snowfall does NOTHING to break their momentum. And due to the extremely long time to cap Snowfall, Horde is back in our face at SHgy and has probably taken it away from us before the SFgy has even finished capping.
Those extra 5 minutes are a killer.
TLDR: Tapping (not even full capping) IBgy slows down the Horde, and allows Alliance to regroup and get back into battle faster for the 2nd push.
Snowfall’s extremely slow timer drains Alliance resources, and keeps fighters away from the main battle.
I guess you didn’t specify in your first post. As long as you have healers with mana, you can continue to push with our rez waves helping to support, the problem is that 10 fresh horde wipe 15 weakened oom allys every time. Holding SH during this is obviously important, yes, regardless of the specific gy target south. It’s just hard to judge skill and gear in that first 2 minutes (or less) of the gates opening.
This is just not true for pugs. Pugs dont even care about winning most of the time. A really good pug would be stoked to kill lts, burn a few towers and make it to horde base. Not getting farmed and earning 3k or more honor is as good as a win regardless of length of match.
It’s certainly possible to win - and it’s not a problem of strategy. There are any number of valid strategies. The problem is in execution. The reason the premades could win is at least in part because they could listen and competently execute a strategy. When they lost, it was usually in part because of a failure to do that.
With a pug group, it’s not impossible to do it… it’s just exceedingly hard, because you essentially need to win the lottery and get players that are of a minimum competence.
It’s further difficult because you don’t have as much room for error and setbacks as the Horde does. If you fail to take a forward graveyard before SHGY falls, you’re SOL. If you lose your forward graveyard and can’t take it back immediately, you’re SOL. Even all the way to the end when you’re trying to pull warmasters, if someone screws up and pulls 3-4 at once, you can get wiped combined with the Horde mass-recalling - and woops, looks like nobody was watching relief hut which just got capped, and you’re back at your cave. Etc, etc…
It further does not help that the Horde attitude these days is essentially to try and deny the Alliance any honor whatsoever, to the point of ceasing offensive operations just to come hunt you all down if you’re somehow managing to make any progress at all.
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Listening to horde give “advice” is like listening to a rich white person talk about the struggles of the inner city and poor and they have “similar experiences”. It’s like, please, stop.
Then when you suggest moving the cave back because obviously the design was both factions meet in the middle… The horde freak out.
Like IBT isn’t in the middle of the field of strife, SHB is. They can reach our tower, captain and GY before we can even reach them. SHGY is even more annoying because there are two areas of attack. IBGY has one, in a choke point. Once Alliance goes defensive it’s a loss 95% of the time.
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Could you stop posting on every one of these threads acting like you know what you’re talking about? The problem is straight up AFK-bots. Until blizz bans those (which they wont) I’m done doing AV and probably done with my sub as well because WSG is boring. It wouldn’t be boring if Horde would fight on even terms but when every horde premade wants to spend 30g+ per engage (and then cry on the forums that alliance premades dodge them) then it’s just not worth the effort I’d have to spend (as I do not buy gold like all the people who are rank 11+) to be competitive.
Well, tonight we had a few nice Games using this approach.
Taking IBGY simply does not work, as alliance is at a tactical disadvantage. The horde come much quicker to attack it from their Cave and can reinforce much quicker when Alliance has to do it from SHgy which is much longer. Which could even be Snap Capped and then your done.
Taking SF (not contesting it, actually capping it) And then Hitting Galv and IbGY works much better.
Yes of course the Horde will come to try and take it and will attack you. Because, they cannot Attack Balinda either if Alliance controls it. What did you expect?
So we fought there reinforced from SH gy instead which is much closer for us. And the Horde has to come all the way from IBGY. Allaince gets Tactical Advantage by focusing SF while holding SH.
You have to keep communicating. If Horde attacks SH, you need to help SH back and forth between SH and SF. Don;t forget within that range Alliance has tactical Advantage, horde is pushing from IBGY farther away.
So the reverse situation as Alliance going for IBGY first is happening.
Once SFgy it caps we can then much better sustain Attack on IBGY (or course Galv, Towers in the process too).
Pugs are starting to queue in on this and we are having some Amazing Games!
Haven’t been in the Keep since Monday, tonight several times 
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