How to make taelia interesting?

[Jazia-sargeras (Jazia)]

The problem here though is that she doesn’t . She doesn’t act like a survivor of a Forsaken attack, as someone who had suffered at their hands, at least to this point.

Forsaken in this matter, the implication that mindless undead are some big concern in the Hillsbrad region, the idea that Calia encountered Faol after this incident going by how the passages are phrased (well after a time when what the Forsaken were should’ve been abundantly clear from further interactions with them as a faction)…

Here’s some more from the book:

And then, with a realization that stopped his breathing with shock, Anduin understood why Calia had decided to befriend the Forsaken. Why, instead of seeing them as the destroyers of her city, her way of life, and all her family, she had chosen to identify with them.

“You’re hoping that your husband and child, too, became Forsaken instead of dying as Scourge,” he said softly. “You’re hoping you’ll get word of them at the Gathering.”

Anduin’s thought process here indicates he’s shocked that she views the Forsaken as seperate from the Scourge, since most people in her position wouldn’t.

It’s strange that he doesn’t just say “dying” without qualifying it with “as scourge”.

So I think it’s possible that Anduin didn’t literally mean dying as scourge, but was referring to the perception of them as being just like the Scourge.

Several characters in the book suggest that the Forsaken would have been better off dying, because unlike Calia they don’t make that distinction.

Calia nodded, wiping at the tears on her face with one hand. The other remained clasped with the young king’s. “Yes,” she said. “It wasn’t until I met the archbishop that I started to understand that the Forsaken weren’t monsters. They were just…us. The same people you and I would be if we had been killed and given a different sort of life.”

Here it indicates that she was aware of the Forsaken before meeting the Archbishop and viewed them as monsters.

My takeaway was that she didn’t see a distinction between the Scourge and the Forsaken because of her experiences and meeting Faol was a revelation to her in the same way it was to Turalyon and Genn.

would point out again that WoWpedia seems to indicate the Southshore incident Calia refers to, at this point in time, occurred during the Third War, and that she met Faol afterwards, in the middle of “fleeing mindless undead.”

It’s a wiki though. Anyone can edit it, even if people agree with it’s interpretations that doesn’t necessarily mean they are accurate.

[Rothiron-maelstrom (Rothiron)]

Fair points all around, though I find the use of the word “city” in response to Southshore a little questionable. A part of me still finds that as a nibbling suggestion of Capital City, and meaning that seeing them as not “the destroyers of her city” and such meant distinguishing the Scourge that had no will and destroyed Lordaeron were different from the Forsaken that had free will.

Wording, phrasing, and perceived order of events seems to be still all muddled and confused, so it seems multiple interpretations can exist in this text. I don’t think that mine is straight out just yet, but yours has plausibility too.

It’s a wiki though. Anyone can edit it, even if people agree with it’s interpretations that doesn’t necessarily mean they are accurate.

I would guess that the fact that anyone can edit it would indicate that multiple people have, and that for the time being what is up there currently might be the agreed upon version. But I can’t say for certain whether that is the case.

Its kinda the blessing of leaving something for anyone to edit. It harnesses the inner desire of the internet people to be right all the time, and correct other’s mistakes.

[Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord (Irenaus)]

I think I could much say the same about you own means of addressing, as again I have not seen many refutations to my suppositions. Jazia is actually leading this foray, and actually gaining ground.

The problem is that I take issue with where you draw the line for refutation. The standard you gave was physical impossibility. I’m not going to argue against a goalpost I don’t disagree with. I’m not denying the physical possibility, just the likelihood.

Making a strawman is a terrible way to prove a point.

Making a strawman is, sure. I only granted that it was hyperbolic. I’ll agree it didn’t prove the point I wanted it to. I apologize that the I went a bit with the example.

I am making the case that it is possible due to certain aligning factors, and I have repeatedly stated them, and even tried to establish a series of confirmed facts from which we can both draw upon to judge the likelihood and plausibility of my theories. Fabricating a random case to parody my stance instead of arguing why those factors do not align as I suggest with the facts I have put forth does nothing but spin us round and round in a circle of futile debate.

I don’t find the compelling factors, given the degree of speculation required, to make the conclusion plausible. That was the point I was going for. That using the number of speculations needed here make it too far reaching a conclusion.

Again, Jazia is actually making the better case at this moment. And I will freely admit, they have made damn good points. They are gaining ground. Be like Jazia, Irenaus.

I respect Jazia’s line of discussion, I just don’t necessarily agree with it since the line you pointed out did give me more reasonable doubt on the timeline.

[Jazia-sargeras (Jazia)]

Strangely enough, I’m partial to thinking my interpretation is correct. But I have no problem admitting it could be wrong.

I just hope that if I am, Taelia still isn’t Calia’s daughter. She already has one foot firmly planted in Mary Sueville, I don’t want to see her live there.

Its kinda the blessing of leaving something for anyone to edit. It harnesses the inner desire of the internet people to be right all the time, and correct other’s mistakes.

Yet strangely enough, I don’t spend any time editing wikis…

[Rothiron-maelstrom (Rothiron)]

The problem is that I take issue with where you draw the line for refutation. The standard you gave was physical impossibility. I’m not going to argue against a goalpost I don’t disagree with. I’m not denying the physical possibility, just the likelihood.

How likely, outside of story tropes (which, let’s be real, in real life are absurdly unlikely oftentimes), was it that Taelia, who Bolvar never once brought up in story, was his daughter? “Likelihood” is beyond vague. And it’s unhelpful. It’s a foggy goalpost. What does “likelihood” even mean? Like, if Bolvar was in Stormwind at the time that Taelia’s mother was separated from them from the Scourge, that’d be reasonable and concrete. That’d put the hypothesis to rest. But if we’re arguing theories, and we just stop it at “Well, you’re theory is unlikely”… and then I acquiesce like you seem to want me to do…

I’m just really confused by what standard you’re working from now.

Making a strawman is, sure. I only granted that it was hyperbolic. I’ll agree it didn’t prove the point I wanted it to. I apologize that the I went a bit with the example.

No, ramping up the hyperbole from a claim like “Bolvar could’ve been in Lordaeron and have a family with Calia before the Scourge separated them all” to “BOLVAR WAS A TIME TRAVELING MEDIVH WHO WENT BACK TO CONCEIVE TAELIA BEFORE THE SCOURGE CAME” is practically strawmanning. It bears no earthly resemblance to my points. It exaggerates my requests to comical levels. And it does not address any of my arguments.

I respect Jazia’s line of discussion, I just don’t necessarily agree with it since the line you pointed out did give me more reasonable doubt on the timeline.

And more to Jazia’s credit, she was able to half convince me of one. Crucial. Physical impossiblity. That the attack on Southshore was by the Forsaken and was in Cata. Which would toss out my theory that Taelia is Bolvar’s daughter right out the window. They are at least meeting the goalpost I proposed. And they didn’t even try to strawman me with hyperbole.

Strangely enough, I’m partial to thinking my interpretation is correct. But I have no problem admitting it could be wrong.

I just hope that if I am, Taelia still isn’t Calia’s daughter. She already has one foot firmly planted in Mary Sueville, I don’t want to see her live there.

I personally wouldn’t have any objections either way. Hopefully if it is the case they’ll execute it well, because I see the “Mary Sueville” as a valid concern.

Yet strangely enough, I don’t spend any time editing wikis…

Eh, there’s probably a surplus of volunteers anyway.

[Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord (Irenaus)]

How likely, outside of story tropes (which, let’s be real, in real life are absurdly unlikely oftentimes), was it that Taelia, who Bolvar never once brought up in story, was his daughter?

Why is this being qualified as outside of story tropes?

“Likelihood” is beyond vague. And it’s unhelpful. It’s a foggy goalpost. What does “likelihood” even mean ?

Just how much speculation has to go into the conclusion. I can’t given you numbers or percentages of likelihood/probability, though. I’m fine agreeing to disagree on the matter. My goal was just to show how high I thought you standard was when you were seemingly drawing an equivalency with the other theory.

And more to Jazia’s credit, she was able to half convince me of one. Crucial . Physical impossiblity. That the attack on Southshore was by the Forsaken and was in Cata. Which would toss out my theory that Taelia is Bolvar’s daughter right out the window . They are at least meeting the goalpost I proposed. And they didn’t even try to strawman me with hyperbole.

There’s no value in meeting a goalpost I don’t disagree with. That’s why I was trying to raise my issue with it. Because I think it is an unreasonably high standard.

[Rothiron-maelstrom (Rothiron)]

Why is this being qualified as outside of story tropes?

I’m suggesting a lens to look through, if you will. Thinking about it from a perspective of “realism”, if you will.

Just how much speculation has to go into the conclusion. I can’t given you numbers or percentages of likelihood/probability, though. I’m fine agreeing to disagree on the matter. My goal was just to show how high I thought you standard was when you were seemingly drawing an equivalency with the other theory.

My speculation is the equivalent to pointing out various aligning factors, and factors that could align, and pointing out various nuances. Using much the same logic as “Hey, these are named characters, they might be the ones referenced.” But its outlandish in my case because its “unlikely”? Because I am doing an arbitrarily “greater” amount of speculation? Because you say the circumstances don’t line up?

I think the standards you are imposing are goalposts I have no interest in meeting, because they sound so arbitrary. The speculation that Taelia was Bolvar’s daughter was fine because it was “likely”, but speculation that Taelia is Calia’s daughter is “unlikely”, despite my case as to why it’s not as unlikely as you say (which between you and me we haven’t discussed for some posts, focused instead on a vague standard of “likelihood”).

There’s no value in meeting a goalpost I don’t disagree with. That’s why I was trying to raise my issue with it. Because I think it is an unreasonably high standard.

It was a standard that Jazia seemingly had no trouble to meet. Is it that its an unreasonable standard, or that you found it unreasonable?

[Jazia-sargeras (Jazia)]

It was a standard that Jazia seemingly had no trouble to meet. Is it that its an unreasonable standard, or that you found it unreasonable?

Leave me out of this please and thank you!

[Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord (Irenaus)]

I’m suggesting a lens to look through, if you will. Thinking about it from a perspective of “realism”, if you will.

Why, though? I thought this was an OoC consideration. I’m sorry if I’m misunderstood.

My speculation is the equivalent to pointing out various aligning factors, and factors that could align, and pointing out various nuances. Using much the same logic as “Hey, these are named characters, they might be the ones referenced.” But its outlandish in my case because its “unlikely”? Because I am doing an arbitrarily “greater” amount of speculation?

Unquestionably more speculation. Between ‘who are named Stormwind knights that died fighting the Lich King that fit this timeline’, of which there are exceedingly few. And ‘maybe Bolvar was a footman, and called Lordaeronian, and Southshore suffered a previously unknown blighting while he was there.’

I think the standards you are imposing are goalposts I have no interest in meeting, because they sound so arbitrary .

You certainly don’t have to meet it if you wish to agree to disagree. But again, if you want me to precisely quantify the matter, I can’t.

It was a standard that Jazia seemingly had no trouble to meet. Is it that its an unreasonable standard, or that you found it unreasonable?

I mean, yes, I found it unreasonable. I’m not positing it passed some objective bar of reasonableness.

[Ronstin-argent-dawn (Ronstin)]

Muradin also used an axe in his other hand, and trained Arthas in swordsmanship if I’m not mistaken. And Uther isn’t exactly interchangeable in the sentence “______ and basically every other paladin in that game.” In THAT specific context, Arthas tossing away the weapon mechanically omnipresent in the game’s paladin class, and picking up the weapon mechanically omnipresent with the deathknight’s class…

Don’t discount interpretations that venture beyond the actual literal events and delve into possible literary tropes and symbolism behind it.

I will do nothing BUT discount them because that’s just another even more vague application of “genre-savviness” than what you’ve been trying to deny me. And hammers were not mechanically omnipresent for the paladin class even then. Both Turalyon AND Uther had already been shown using a sword, for instance, like all paladin units in WC2.

Of course not, its not a glove fit, but you see footmen wielding swords for like the entirety of Warcraft history, despite maybe spears or polearms being a more logical choice given their vocation. You are now take my stance and pushing it beyond the bounds I even argued it to begin with.

You tried to claim it wasn’t normal. But it clearly IS normal. You tried to get around this by saying “well, she’s a girl so it would actually be hard for her” But we’ve seen it elsewhere with woman knights so you’re just flat wrong there as well.

I’m saying that until confirmed, it’s speculation . You speculated correctly that Taelia was indeed Bolvar’s daughter. But it was still speculation until confirmed. Because all that there was towards that end was some hints and coincidences. And yet using that same general line of thinking, when I speculate something, using the same line of thinking… suddenly you give me a hard time.

And apparently I missed the party where we all confirmed that Taelia =/ Calia’s daughter. Because, well, no one has really been giving me concrete proof that I haven’t been able to debunk as evidence towards physical impossibility.

There’s nothing you can actually debunk so even in our real physical world. ALL “knowledge” is actually speculation. But we disregard such solipsism because it would make life difficult and accept that when something is reasonably clear we’ll regard it as reality until proven otherwise. Which most of us did with Taelia and Bolvar even if wanted and still want to close your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears regarding that datamined material. You are free to be as inconsistent and willfully blind as you want but you don’t get to declare that we have to be as well to suit you.

So how about you give me a break. Or at least take a break until you can cool down, because it seems you’re getting really heated about this.

The fact that you had the sheer gall to dismiss something as “genre-savviness” when you built your entire line of argument through two different games on something even more vaguer and empty did indeed piss me off. It demonstrated that you weren’t just being blind, but you’d decided to be a howling hypocrite in your post-hoc attempts to justify and rationalize your position. That kind of knowing and deliberate dishonesty sets me off.

How likely, outside of story tropes (which, let’s be real, in real life are absurdly unlikely oftentimes), was it that Taelia, who Bolvar never once brought up in story, was his daughter?

Very likely. It is, in fact, literally impossible for it not to be the case This is serial fiction. Taelia literally never existed until they decided to create Bolvar’s daughter as a character (to be a romantic interest for Anduin, most probably) and all of Bolvar’s opportunities to “bring up” a daughter came before the creation of the new character. Where’s Vol’jin’s wife? Why did he never once brought up the family CDev now declare he had? You don’t get to try and declare ‘realism’ when addressing a question that is purely Doylist. The two literally CANNOT intersect.

[Rothiron-maelstrom (Rothiron)]

Why, though? I thought this was an OoC consideration. I’m sorry if I’m misunderstood.

At this point, I’m encouraging looking at it from several angles and lens, not just the lens of “Well, its fiction, so obviously this person is the person we know who fits the description loosely.”

Unquestionably more speculation. Between ‘who are named Stormwind knights that died fighting the Lich King that fit this timeline’, of which there are exceedingly few. And ‘maybe Bolvar was a footman, and called Lordaeronian, and Southshore suffered a previously unknown blighting while he was there.’

Actually, funny thing… While I was looking through the text to better analyze Jazia’s points, I noticed a little discrepancy. Calia doesn’t say “a Lordaeronian footman”. She says “one of the footman.” No mention of nationality. Unless that distinction comes from elsewhere in the text. And the Alliance military does have men from the various kingdoms involved.

Plus, call me crazy, but I think it’s safe to say that at some point or another, Bolvar was a footman or a low rank in the army before he rose to the position of knight. That’s just kinda how the military works. Unless he got his position from nobility, but he doesn’t seem that type, and I recollect no mention of a noble upbringing.

And we know Bolvar was in Lordaeron for a time, given that Taelia is from there and the history of Stormwind’s mass evacuation across the sea to Southshore would’ve meant that Bolvar traveled there sometime. That’s just plainly obvious.

So how much speculation is my theory with those matters in mind? Main outstanding thing right now is him being the mystery soldier and whether Southshore was “blighted” by Scourge or Forsaken (bearing in mind that there’s feasible cause to believe that “blight” can refer to the Scourge’s plague as opposed to the Forsaken’s). Me and Jazia have gone back and forth on that count.

[Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord (Irenaus)]

At this point, I’m encouraging looking at it from several angles and lens, not just the lens of “Well, its fiction, so obviously this person is the person we know who fits the description loosely.”

I think it misses some key elements to do so.

Actually, funny thing… While I was looking through the text to better analyze Jazia’s points, I noticed a little discrepancy. Calia doesn’t say “a Lordaeronian footman”. She says “ one of the footman .” No mention of nationality. Unless that distinction comes from elsewhere in the text. And the Alliance military does have men from the various kingdoms involved.

Strange, that’s true. I really, really thought I saw that specific designation in the book. But perhaps not.

Plus, call me crazy, but I think it’s safe to say that at some point or another, Bolvar was a footman or a low rank in the army before he rose to the position of knight. That’s just kinda how the military works. Unless he got his position from nobility, but he doesn’t seem that type, and I recollect no mention of a noble upbringing.

I don’t think it safe to say one way or another. Warcraft doesn’t typically go out of the way to depict nobles or nobility as especially negative.

So how much speculation is my theory with those matters in mind? Main outstanding thing right now is him being the mystery soldier and whether Southshore was “blighted” by Scourge or Forsaken (bearing in mind that there’s feasible cause to believe that “blight” can refer to the Scourge’s plague as opposed to the Forsaken’s). Me and Jazia have gone back and forth on that count.

Probably just that he was a footman, which is less contradictory to me if he isn’t specifically called Lordaeronian. And where a possible Blighting of Southshore lines up.

[Pyrogar-proudmoore (Pyrogar)]

I want them to just have her be Anduin’s friend, ward, and bodyguard akin to the role her dad played for Anduin as a boy. I don’t want them to go the super cheesy marriage route, I just think that’s boring and predictable. I just think it’d be more interesting if she was just Anduin’s good friend and protector, like the Brienne of Tarth to Anduin’s Ned Stark, if any of you watch Game of Thrones.

[Etheldald-ragnaros (Etheldald)]

why would she be more loyal to anduin than to kultiras?
because valera already seems to be that brienne of tarth.

[Zuleika-hyjal (Zuleika)]

I want them to just have her be Anduin’s friend, ward, and bodyguard akin to the role her dad played for Anduin as a boy.

Isn’t that Valeera nowadays?

ETA: Ninja’d by Etheldald!

[Etheldald-ragnaros (Etheldald)]

haha gotcha! 5 seconds and you would had won!

[Pyrogar-proudmoore (Pyrogar)]

The thing is, right, by the end of the expansion, she’s probably going to want to come to her birth-city, the city her father served, and likely wants to do Alliance stuff full-time, so i’d assume she’d be there to stay. I think she would be Anduin’s more public bodyguard.

The thing about Valeera is that shes more of an on the dL kinda bodyguard, like, not everyone knows about her, she’s not a public figure and if she was she probably wouldn’t be trusted much.

[Zuleika-hyjal (Zuleika)]

I think she would be Anduin’s more public bodyguard.

The thing about Valeera is that shes more of an on the dL kinda bodyguard, like, not everyone knows about her, she’s not a public figure and if she was she probably wouldn’t be trusted much.

I’ll be honest–I just don’t see Blizzard doubling up on female bodyguards for Anduin. If Taelia goes to Stormwind and meets Anduin at all, it’s 90% likely to be for purposes of telling a romantic story, not a big-sister-bodyguard-and-buddy story.

[Rothiron-maelstrom (Rothiron)]

why would she be more loyal to anduin than to kultiras?
because valera already seems to be that brienne of tarth.

She’s probably indebted to Kul Tiras, but that doesn’t necessarily mean she’s going to simply stay there the rest of her life. And it doesn’t mean she cuts all ties to it by moving elsewhere, such as her father’s homeland.

[Zaltaan-bloodhoof (Zaltaan)]

I mean is there anything wrong with having plain old good people?

In another fantasy universe, I think I could explain it better for you.

Captain America is great. The ultimate good guy without a shred of character flaws, other than he’s just too good of a good guy. Sure we cheer for him, but who really identifies with captain america?

Now Tony Stark… there’s someone most of us can identify with a little bit. He has a drinking problem (and if the avengers weren’t pg-13 rated, he’d probably have other dependencies as well), makes terrible decisions that lead to disastrous results, and in general, is not the mary-sue that Steve Rogers is.

If you’re flawed, you’re relatable. It’s why everyone was so divided on Thrall. It’s why nearly no one is happy with Anduin. It’s why I actually like Jaina a LOT more than I used to. It’s why I dislike Sylvanas the way I should as an alliance character.

At least that’s my take on everything. I’m probably wrong.