But that’s always been a matter of perspective, isn’t it?
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I believe viability is a huge factor in people believing ret is perfectly fine and needs no changes.
I dont enjoy current gameplay, ita so watered down and ret hasnt been this easy to get into than it is right now. Specially in pvp. Just press wake and it deals damage by itself. Auto wings auto cs auto consecration auto sac auto freedom… id argue, current iteration is as damaging to the health of the spec as it was SL modifiers galore
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I say this with all due respect----maybe you need to switch to another main if you’re not enjoying ret. I mean, the whole point of playing this game is to enjoy yourself.
I’d argue the opposite. Like I said, matter of perspective, right?
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Yes, of course.
I’m not necessarily disagreeing with some the changes you’d like to see.
I don’t think removing CSAA and RG necessarily complexifies the gameplay.
For PVE it genuinely did fix the problems holding it back.
Although they could have fixed it without the rework it got.
The 3 main problems were
- The defensives
- Mobility
- Bloat (this can be subjective but it was identified as such so it’s there)
They gave us DP on TOP of SoV (great but nerfed in PVP for you ), they removed steed from the GCD and gave us Unbound Freedom in the class tree (but removed the dispel protection for PVP).
For bloat, they removed spells that had no added value to be pressed such as consecration and Exo (df version).
Whilst also trimming down CD’s such as Seraphim and making a filler passive (CS).
The other “minor issues” were
- Ret aura was not an aura
- Builders were hitting like wet-noodles
They tried to solve the aura but it ended up just being another “required” buff so they deleted it and left instrument as a passive.
They made builders actually relevant but maybe too much relevant.
Which is another kind of problem entirely, nowhere near as hindering as the initial 3 were.
Doing so they also made the Ret DPS much flatter.
PVP in all of this mostly lost relatively important interactions that weren’t compensated.
It’s not that what they did wasn’t good, it generally was, it’s that it’s unfinished.
The PVP balance team didn’t follow through on the changes.
Which leaves you in the dust, with a “new Ret” that does less, from your perspective, than it did before.
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Who are you to tell me to switch my main? I want the spec to improve and current iteration is not an improvement mechanically. I will tell you go play an enhance shaman if you enjoy being gcd locked spam the button that lights up forever stormstrike into stormstrike into stormstrike is literally what we have now as ret. The spec is flooding with resources and all you do is fv fv boj fv fv boj boj because it plays by itself you domt even have to press WINGS.
Gtfo
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Builders still hit for nothing and it will never improve because we can just spam them back to back. Boj is priority iver everything else but judgement. Cs is automatically cast ans HoW is never pressed unless anshe proc or there is nothing else to press.
This is not what ret always was. Idk where all of you ret “mains” where the last years because the spec has never been this autopilot and spammy. Ever. Gameplay is not rewarding doesnt feel punchy except hammer of light.
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What im hearing her say, in a nutshell, is 1. Its too simple, 2. There is too much reliance around ashes, 3. Its too fast, for the top three.
At the end of last xpac the 3 main issues for ret were 1. The spec was tooooo slow. 2. Too much stacking, 3. Wings were inconsequential. Blizz fixed exactly what needed to be fixed. Now im far from a white knighter, god the farest you could get. I hate blizz with a passion when it comes to class balance. But for ret, they actually did well.
The change to ashes was probably the best move they coule have done. It streamlined the spec so much and made cds match each other. The crusader strike change also minimized bloat. Lastly, the procs and judgment hitting multiple targets, etc… just feels good.
I speak in a pve sense. In a 8 min boss fight, the spec flows, its not a headache, lining up cds feels natural, we can switch targets easily without loosing much dps, we can prioritize targets, and we have good burst. You seriously cannot expect much more from blizz. Yea, they def can work on balancing herald closer to templar.
This whole idea of seals and such is antiquated. Most of what was requested by her were old ideas proven to be busts. In pvp, even, they might have worked but they destroyed ret in every other way. Requesting a class to be changed for a tiny % of the pop (pvp consists of very few people versus pve) is ridiculous. Blizz can adjust things pvp wise but they shouldnt change rets core elements atm. Its too good.
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What part of “with all do respect” did you not get?? And nobody TOLD YOU to switch your main. It was a suggestion…period. Calm down.
Once again, a matter of perspective.
Right back at’cha.
QFT.
No, they contribute for more than they used to relative to the spenders.
The only reason they kept a similar % on logs compared to say, first patch of DF or end of SL is because the Hero Specs swooped in and took 20-30% of the total damage onto themselves.
But if you compare in terms of average hit/AP% the builders hit for much more than they use to and especially in AoE.
And that’s not mentioning the new Mastery which is effectively an addon to builder damage as well for Judgement and HoW.
Like just as an example, Judgement in DF first patch was around 25-30% of the average damage of FV.
Right now it’s near 50%.
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Your ideas are bad and you should feel bad (V)(;,;)(V)
TV should transform into FV during Wings. Lower BoJ and TV to 12 yds outside of Wings, and then compensate with some sort of mobility buff.
I agree it’s great when abilities interact with each other.
I don’t think Judgment is the right ability for Ret’s Divine Toll. As Templar especially, we can’t burn through all the stacks of the Judgment debuff during Divine Resonance. Judgment gets pushed out of the AoE rotation, which HoW and ES aren’t part of to begin with. That leaves us with BoJ and DS spam. So DT isn’t just unimaginative, it simplifies the spec to a ludicrous degree.
More binds doesn’t necessarily mean more complexity. I argued CS was bloat years before it was removed. I don’t find TS more challenging than CSAA.
I never asked for passive Wings, but RG was a pleasant surprise because it’s fun. It probably lowers Ret’s complexity overall, but that’s not a good enough reason to nerf or remove something many of us enjoy. Just bake Divine Wrath into active Wings and see where that takes us.
I like some of your ideas, like to merge Turn Evil with its upgrades, or that HoW shouldn’t require Vengeful Wrath to rise above the bottom of the barrel.
I agree Ret’s low skill floor is mostly a good thing, but it’s taken to an extreme. Some paladins will say this extreme is thanks to CSAA and RG, but those mechanics are fine imo. The actual culprit is that BoJ dominates everything, but even that is just a symptom! The disease is that HoW is absent too often while the Judgment debuff is too available. HoW, and Judgment to a lesser extent, need to reassert themselves in the rotation. (Or, HoW and Judgment can be merged in an interesting way, and active CS brought back. Either approach could work. In fact both approaches could exist in a well-designed tree.)
I also agree Ret doesn’t have the abysmally low skill ceiling some suggest.
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So, the whole conversation around divine toll is kind of taken out of context. Thats part of the problem when blizz reuses old spells without thinking things through. Originally, it was a solid cd. A great aoe cd that spread judgment buffs. However, its ultimate strength was its quick repetitive, quick hitting judgements that allowed players to utilize spenders. Blizz gutted it by slowing the repetition down, making the spell less consequential to aoe burst. So, right now, the spell feels like nothing bc its so slow and bc our hero talents have shifted the majority of our dmg to our spenders, requiring less dependence on divine toll’s buffs.
In single target, it feels awkward to use bc you think of all these judgments going out but in all reality your just using it during ur burst phase for the holy power it gives so you dont have to use builders. Thats perfectly acceptable, and really, a good place for the spell, but its not going to fell great. In reality, its an aoe spell, short of the holy power it provides.
This is what happens when blizz reuses old crap and tries to implement it in modern use. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. In this case, it found a middle ground, somewhat forgettable position that makes the rotation better but isnt going to be top priority.
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I don’t mind that Divine Toll gives passive holy power gen, in fact I think it takes skill to manage it and CSAA at the same time. But we do use some active generators during this window, and since Divine Resonance stacks the Judgment debuff, those generators are BoJ > BoJ > BoJ. Never Judgment thanks to Divine Res.
The Judgment debuff should be somewhat scarcer, and the damage Judgment along with its debuff deals should be high enough that it’s prioritized over BoJ when the debuff is absent from the target. Managing the debuff adds a layer of complexity to the rotation. It gives players new to Ret a way to mess up and deal lower DPS.
Some Rets suggest that mistakes should lead to running out of buttons to press, but I vehemently disagree since that would raise the skill floor in an unfun way. Rather, prioritizing abilities incorrectly should simply lead to lower DPS.
BoJ, Judgment, and HoW should all have significant roles in the rotation, but Divine Toll / Res drowns out Judgment. The solution is probably to have it fire off BoJs or HoWs instead. Why does it have to be Judgment? It’s Avenger’s Shield for Prot and Holy Shock for Holy.
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Hummm
It was the least bad of 4 choices and the most versatile.
It was never particularly engaging.
Ironically, since I really dislike consecration, the 1 SL spell I found thematically fun was Ashen Hollow and it’s the 1 spell they didn’t bring back.
I generally dislike ground effect but a high CD VERY large ground effect that REALLY empowered the paladin felt pretty good to use even if it was sporadic.
They really only “removed” Ringing Clarity from the equation (the one that gave it a chance to recast up to 3 additional times on 1 target, very substantial ST burst).
The rest is pretty much the same with resonance which was a covenant legendary power nobody took until they introduced the belt.
So it lost it’s ST appeal, in ST it’s just a stronger judgement on a 1min CD.
And on aoe, while it retains it “fill HP” identity, normal judgement now cleaves and does the same thing with Blessed Champions…
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What would guys think of Divine Toll firing off five BoJs / BoVs, and each of these drops a Consecration which stack with each other? I think visually it would be a moment. HoW is a good candidate as well if it gets some love. Both Toll and Resonance would be great fun against low-health targets.
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Either that will work or maybe use it to revive excorcism for ret with an added DoT to it since it is requested so much recently.
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True, it could be Exo, although I think BoJ is very close to that nowadays. Only thing missing is the bonus crit against demons and undead, and some range.
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I think this would have the same issue as Blessed Champion.
Blade of Vengeance would have to change to some sort of different cleave, or be removed, so that these two talents could better distinguish themselves.
It also wouldn’t really change how shallow it feels as a ST ability, assuming its just “cast BoJ at 100% effectiveness…”
I’d be more interested in;
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What makes it different than normal Blade of Justice in that scenario? =/
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Does Ret need a more 2-3 min cooldown? Has the pendulum moved too far towards the 30sec gameplay?
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Looking at spells like The Hunt, Abomb Limb, and Champion’s Spear, what’s a type of utility Ret could bring?
(Personally, I’m bias towards reskining Conqueror’s Banner in a Blessing of Might type buff.)
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not gonna bother to read the billion replies above but tldr
a spec without any form of skill expression is a unhealthy one and a balancing nightmare. sl ret wasnt hard, it just people didnt find it instantly engaging dur to it ramp set up burst profile.
burst>sustain
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That’s true for all 3 specs though.
None of the 3 specs has a particularly good use of DT for ST scenario.
Ehh can you warp that into Ashen Hollow 2.0 as a replacement for consecration while were at it?
3-4min CD buff/aura type of thing.
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