It is. How can you even ask that question? A spec being damn easy to pick up inflates its popularity. You no longer have ret “mains” you have all other classes mains having a ret alt they dont have to put any thought or time into it… because the spec performs way above the others right out of the box at a decent level.
I feel like im being psyoped, how can you argue for this?
Nothing in what you said is intrinsically a bad thing.
So again, how is it a bad thing that a spec, ANY SPEC, would be easy to pick up?
Maybe the problem is that some specs are needlessly complicated and hard to get into?
Literally impossible to tell if it’s true or not. And even if you asked people, they could tell you their main is 1 character and then have more play time on one of their “alt”.
Means less than nothing.
Also if that was all there was to it, Beast Mastery would also have huge amount of players, yet it doesn’t.
By this logic it should have a bunch of “non-main hunters” just playing it because its simple without having to put thoughts into it.
If a class isn’t “meta” and doesn’t perform particularly well in any spheres, then how else explain it’s popularity other than people genuinely enjoying it.
Its been looking the same for 15 years, tuning is always a coin toss and as we said its no outlier ATM, the only thing that changed recently is how it plays.
So yes, I guess we can say people do enjoy it.
Like Nike, I just “Do It.”
Again, this is a bad thing…why? 
Yeah, no.
Still not understanding why it’s a bad thing (other than competition for M+).
I’m not the only one challenging you on this, so it’s not just a “me” thing.
I get what Christtel’s saying. Even if Ret wasn’t pushing the highest keys this season, it was a +12 stomper, which is basically Glad for m+. It could be a little more complex without raising a huge barrier to entry. It’s not all or nothing.
I don’t agree with Arahgon that CD stacking was the height of complex gameplay. Hope that never comes back.
Hail, Turalyonn. For the Scarlet Onslaught!
Then I freely acknowledge you’re a smarter man than I am.
It COULD be, but I actually like where it is. That’s just me. I’m not a complicated guy; take that as you will.
Hail Churchmouse. For the Order of the Silver Hand! For the Holy Light!
I dont what what iteration of paladin would be considered the best. But I know which one was the worst.
Cata ret is horrid. Sure it hits hard but the gameplay is awful.
Wrath Ret was good… with T10 2pc. I think a lot of people forget about that little detail getting divine storm procs.
I do like the older divine storm animation though.
ive went on a vacation for week and someone im still mentioned. nice i have such a huge impact
btw we still do cd stacking it just doesnt have seraphim
in df there was es wings wake and dt, in tww next patch theres es wake, divine hammer, and dt
we legit traded cdstacking for this weird cd stacking
also ret needs to be somewhat more complex rn its not healthy, im not suggesting we make it monk levels of complex. but reducing hopo generale, nerfing generators and buffing spenders to give our resource a purpose would be more than enough
then trying to give resource a purpose through divine hammer
Can confirm: Cata Ret was so bad everyone used the Hidden Helm option and got extravagant hair styles to show off because the numbers were so bad. Also our theme song “Whip My Hair” by Willow Smith. It. Was. Awful.
There isn’t really stacking. It’s just ES → Wake. Which is significantly shorter than Seraphim, Wings, FV/ES, Wake.
Four is a stack… Two is a pair.
If you want to talk about CD stacking Unholy DK is ridiculous and tedious.
And we’re going the route of complexity through abilities I’d really like the CD’s to be worth a global. If we get Seraphim, it better be off global or it better do some damage on top of the buff.
You forgot divine toll, like it or not its a cd due to dr
Also your forgetting divine hammer in ptr
You got four buttons in ptr which is one less than pre rework.
Again I’m not asking for ret to go back to its “difficult” roots. I legit just want my resource to mean something, I want a big cooldown that isn’t tied to wake of ashes. Instead we’re getting the same cd stacking y’all hate except it’s worse
I mean the dps figures arent extremely bad. Its not great, but its not bad. The gameplay however is the worst thing I have experienced in this game other than the playerbase itself.
It has heavy hits but there is a reason why the playstyle didnt last long.
The idea of limiting resources so they are “meaningful” is a joke.
These people are too concerned with making the rotation as overly complicated as possible rather than making it fun.
Back in the real world, every spec where they increased resource generation got more fun.
It was the case for enhancement shaman, it was the case for frost both of them, it was the case for fire, for arcane for outlaw for unholy for retribution for affliction for destruction for demonology, do I need to go on?
This is especially true if spending resources has some kind of rotational feedback like for example for enhance both building and spending has significant rotational impact, spending gives you tempest and can proc deeply rooted elements, building gives you CDR on wolves.
And instead almost every time they tried to reduce resource generation it resulted in the gameplay being worse.
Also, some of these specs are not easy to play, yet they still have high resource generation. But I thought you needed meaningful resources for a rotation to be complex and fun!
Turns out that just because you have high resource generation that doesn’t mean priorities go out of the window, and you still have to optimize how you build and spend stacks in order to do proper damage.
I hope blizzard never takes these people seriously, but sadly I already know that sometimes they do, because they did reduce resource generation on a few specs even recently, and guess what, they’re less fun now. So thanks for that.
The usual suspects proving once again why they are on my list of people who I shouldn’t take seriously.
Is it the fact that you have to cast wake of ashes to use it that bothers you? I don’t particularly see the issue because it makes the spender available after you’ve applied the damage increases that makes the big spender worth spending. Maybe I’m just oversimplifying because I don’t mind it.
You mean in classic? I haven’t played Cata since the original 15 years ago. They may have learned from their mistakes back then. Back when Cata originally launched the mastery was a joke and rotation was clunky. I moved off ret outside of pvp(which I did in 2’s and bgs just for fun) and rolled holy because I didn’t like it.
Cata classic yes. Its rotationally garbage.
Crusader Strike doesnt proc Divine Purpose
Haste doesnt lower the melee GCD
Divine Storm doesnt build holy power unless it hits 4 or more targets
Inquisition isnt fun
I dont know of a worse designed spec. There might be, but I havent experienced it at least.
Dont even really know about TWW because I havent bought it and probably wont all because of their Early Access stuff.
None of it was all that great. I wouldn’t let it hold you back in that regard. The expansion is a lot of fun though. If you get a gift card or something like that it might be worth a try. Just my .02. to each their own though.
But yeah Cata Ret was garbage and everyone hated it then. It kind enforced the belief that blizzard didn’t care at all about ret and wanted the paladin community to run more prot and holy. It was a stigma that until very recently never really went away.
it just makes wake of ashes seem bloated for no reason
it has crit and haste scaling, it triggers both hero talents, it triggers wings, it increases dot damage and our tier set increases its damage amp
it just seems like to much on one button, while also having wings attach to it makes it even more simplification than normal. it just seems weird to have a iconic button l,ike wings, just be attached to wake of ashes
again you like just to talk without saying anything valuable to say, no one is saying we should make ret into a super complicated spec at all. the idea of making spenders do more to make our resource be more meaningful shouldnt be controversial at all. but yet here you are writing a whole thesis and using overtuned classes as a example of it
Stop smoking dude.
I don’t even know wtf you’re on about, how are all of those specs overtuned?? Ridiculous.
The point is that reducing resource gen is not a goal they should have for ret, it’s fine like this. Every single spec where they increased resource generation felt better to play, that was the actual point, reducing resource generation for ret would nor result in better gameplay, quite the opposite, but whatever you say.
The usual suspects strike again. You don’t even know wtf you’re on about.
A whole lot of nothing, just because you disagree doesn’t mean there wasn’t an argument, just get out of here with that dismissive bs.
It’s just stupid internet debate tactics for pseudo intellectuals, it’s a pathetic attempt shut down arguments.
again mentioning shammy as if that spec doesnt do 3 times more dps the nthe next spec and saying “its a good example of x and y” doesnt make it a good example of x and y
its not fine like this, the amount of hopo overcap there is is insane and it only serves to make us not care about our resource, its not healthy for the spec nor is it fun to ignore hopo overcap to squeeze in that extra blade of justice over slamming final verdict.
the amount of hopo waste from csaa and divine toll alone is just crazy.
thats rich from you, every post you make its just to create misinfo. ive lost count of the amount of “usual suspects” stepping up to calmly explaining to you why your wrong only for you to conitnue to be dense and agressive about everything, until finally they get tired of you for you to then play the victim. even the wowhead guide writer and every competent ret out there agrees that theres to much hopo and waste
its on everyspace i have the misfortune to see you in.
its very clear you dont play any spec at any competent level to even weigh on internal spec design beyond what you find subjectively fun
again asking for our resource to matter isnt a controversial subject, nor asking for our resource to matter doesnt automatically mean “we have to cd stack again” or “we gotta make the spec super duper complex”. it literally just means, buff spenders nerf generators and make judgement generate one hopo only. thats it. if you find that remotely hard then frankly idk what else to say
Im not seeing this “massive hp overcap” maybe a few stacks, but that’s it, maybe that’s a you problem.
Or maybe you’re just trying to make the problem bigger than it is to make your argument seem more valid, wouldn’t be the first time anyway.
It’s not my first rodeo dealing with disingenuous arguments from pseudo intellectuals on the internet, whether it’s gaming or other topics.
Just stop.
As usual, you people prove again and again why you’re on the “don’t take this person seriously” list.
If you or people like you were to design the game i guarantee it would be total dog.
Back in the real world, almost every spec where they reduced resource gen resulted in a less fun experience, literally the most recent case is fire mage on ptr, it’s still good, but certainly not as fun as before.
That’s about all, bye bye, im done with you on this.