Yes that was the main problem with it, but honestly, just removing the hp cost would have been fine.
For the art of war proc there were no issues, i think it was up around 50% of the time in shadowlands, which is fine, i don’t see a problem with it.
Maintenance buff does not mean bad. It was a button you pressed every 45 seconds, and then you had art of war procs which you would have gotten anyway. Inquisition was the boring maintenance buff, why? Because it still consumed holy power but it was something that just increased your damage by a % and had no cd, as far as i remember, that’s an example of a maintenance buff that’s just not very fun. Same with savage roar, just a boring % damage increase with a cost attached to it. No thanks.
I think they handled seraphim the wrong way, getting the secondary stat boost was really nice, especially the haste, the main issue was just the holy power cost, that’s literally it, not even the gcd, just the hp cost.
why are we pretending that seraphim was maintence? it was a burst cd you synced with your other 1mins. once the shadowlands tier set appeared you dropped seraphim to blast with wings explosions
Because it was? And most paladins at the time wanted it gone. Why are we pretending it was popular?
msot paladins just wanted to slam buttson and not be a burden. like now.
that being said, if you used seraphim as maintence instead of as burst then you were 100% playing wrong. most paladins that dislike seraphim were legit pressing it on cd instead of syncing it with dt, fr,
Sorry, but this is one of the very rare cases where I have to agree with ahragon.
While I didn’t like the cost associated to seraphim, it is not by definition a maintenance ability, it’s not something with no cd that you keep up all the time, like slice and dice, which at this point is a non issue, or inquisition.
And as I said before, maintenance doesn’t automatically make something bad, there are maintenance abilities that feel good to extend and keep up, and others that are just an annoyance, like inquisition or savage roar
Seraphim was really cool, for providing loads of secondary stats, but it had a single major issue that made it feel pretty annoying to use, and that was the holy power cost, remove that and seraphim would have been completely fine, and an awesome ability.
I would be very glad to see it back eventually, though without holy power cost, and also the seraphim proc on art of war
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People find different things fun. There is usually something to press every second or so. I suppose Templar’s Verdict is supposed to be a finisher because it consumes HP, but I guess I don’t see it in those terms. It’s just another button to press when it’s available. Every button I press makes a little noise so I know I am doing something, LOL! I use Templar Strikes because I like it, and it does more damage than TV or BOJ. Maybe that is “wrong” from a design perspective, but it doesn’t matter to me. I really don’t care about having a “big finisher”, so I suppose I just like the steady DPS profile.
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It could be more fun though.
Divine Steed could be a Ferrari
Judgement could use a Rocket Launcher instead.
Confetti should explode from me and I should get mailed 5,000 gold every time I heal/Cast a support spell outside of Holy.
Ya’ know, fun. Real fun. Not like that artificial fun.
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Viability =/= fun
Get that through your tiny head. “Muh ret is fine” is not an excuse to stop improvimg or fixing fundamental issues with the spec
I don’t think that’s what he said.
He’s answering the topic.
The OP is suggesting things that cuts at the flow and how the spec feels, talks about APM’s and generally has a sentiment toward yet another redesign.
Which Ret doesn’t need.
It doesn’t mean it should not be touched at all in areas where talents/abilities are broken or where imbalances subsist.
No one would seriously suggest to stop touching any and all things on a spec.
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Thats your opinion.
What you call flow I call wack a mole spammy gameplay that limits the amount of skill expression of even experience with the spec.
I dont agrrr with his ways of achieving a more meaningful rotation but current iteration of the spec is boring and unfun because its flooding with resources and there nigh zero decision making.
You like spammy gameplay, you like cs autoproccing, judgement and boj autocleaving, you like having your cds go off automatically. I dont.
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Ressource could matter while keeping a similar flow, those aren’t mutually exclusive.
If you don’t like the pace, that’s you for sure.
Given the popularity of the spec, it’s hard to say people feel that way. 
Yea and popularity means enjoyment of the spec right? Lmfao
Popularity means the spec is damn easy to pick up that everyone can perform at a reasonable level being a complete noob st the spec. Thats popularity. Easy to gear, damn easy to play, everything autoprocs.
Again you are co fusing viability with actual fun.
The spec is popular because is just too good for the average joe.
And yes the pace is an issue not my issue. Because ret was never this spammy. 5.4 mop maybe but even then end of expansiom fully BiSed haste stacking machine cant compare to season 1 of a brand new expansion with stat drs implemented.
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I meant to some extend it does.
It is not the only factor however.
But given Ret isn’t a “Meta” spec to push M+ or a even a top performer on any fight on the raid nor is it good in PVP apparently, you have to at least entertain the idea that this popularity is due to how “fun” people find it yes.
Why is that a bad thing?
What do you have against “average joes”?
Is wow some elitist game?
Freaking nerd gating…
Can’t believe I’d ever use those 2 words together 
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Well…yeah.
And…this is a bad thing how? 
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It’s funny because this kind of thing is only said by ret mains.
I don’t mean you personally since I know you’re just paraphrasing pvpers. But I swear pvp rets have the worst victim mentality.
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I really liked Ret in Dragonflight season 1 when you could turn Wake into a spender. And was a big fan of the 4-5 HP spender gameplay. But I’m fairly certain I’m a minority in that, also fairly certain that most players want to mash buttons and otherwise only care about what the meter says.
Currently I think the Ret fulfills the fantasy fairly well. My only big complaint is being forced into Haste talents no matter which Hero tree I choose. Ret feels a bit more cookie cutter than perhaps ever. I would love to go back to Wake being a spender and spending on 4 HP, I very much doubt that will ever come back.
Go play a spec with meaningful choices in the rotation and actual resource management and then come back to ret and THEN complain that it’s muh too simple not enough fun.
Sweating around your 20 button opener stops being fun after a while and so does carefully minding your resources so you don’t get starved with no way out.
Ret is fine. You don’t like it don’t play it, stop pushing for idiotic unnecessary complexity.
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What? Downvote.
Anyway, it’s hard to say “this will deff make the spec more fun” since people’s priorities are differrent.
In pvp the spec is trully boring atm but it has nothing to do with “apm”, this is a game with a global cooldown, an argument about apm is kinda nonsensical.
Pve I have no idea tbh.
Agreed the cost itself was the heldback. They can always make it that you require 3 to use the ability but not actually consume it so with just 2 hopo you cannot activate it etc. That would have made alot more sense.
Furthermore iirc it has it’s own GCD so you cannot use it together in a macro, if that changed as well, that would have been lovely icing on the top.