How to Implement the Level Squish

There is a lot of discussion about this topic, and a lot of misguided ideas floating around. So let’s set the record straight about what won’t be and what should be. First, I’ll talk about the purpose of a level squish, then how I see a successful implementation working out. (Scroll to the quote boxes to find the important bits.)

1. PURPOSE

There are several reasons for having a level squish. Total time to hit max is NOT one of them. Neither is “120 is too daunting”. Expect levelling time and challenge to remain roughly the same either way.

-Rewards: The main reason Ion floated in the Q&A is reward pacing. Currently, there are huge gaps where you gain nothing. With less levels, every level could offer a talent, spell, or other direct reward to your character. Many people opposed to the squish say this doesn’t matter to them. To them, I have two responses: first, that argument says you don’t know as much about your own psychological responses as you think you do, and second, it’s not about you specifically. It’s about creating a better game that is better at attracting and holding new and old players. A ding with a reward trains you to anticipate and enjoy the ding. A ding with no reward is more like your roommate’s alarm that keeps going off every 10 minutes on snooze. Annoying and repetitive. This does not spark joy.

-Milestones: Another important aspect of good game design is to have goals to look forward to and work towards. Things like mounts upgrade at 20, 40, and 60. Or a big spell or talent that fundamentally changes your play style. Or completing a zone and finishing its story. If you can see a road map of your levelling progress in your mind with the major milestones that you will pass, your gameplay will be less tedious and feel quicker. It’s like being at work and looking forward to your next break. First you look forward to morning coffee, then lunch, then afternoon coffee, and finally to going home. If, an hour into your shift, you’re looking forward to going home, it will make the entire day seem much, much longer and more tedious. Note how well Vanilla levelling creates milestones, whereas levelling through 60 levels of expansions do NOT. This is why 60-120 feels so much worse than 1-60. This will be an important concept later.

-Storytelling: By far, however, the most important reason to have a level squish is for storytelling reasons. Imagine you had a kindle with 1000 books on it, tailored to your interests and reading preferences. Now imagine each time you got half-way into a book it got deleted and you had to move on to the next book. How long would you keep using that kindle? Not very long. That’s how WoW’s levelling currently plays. Far more important than rewards and milestones or the time it takes to level is the storytelling aspect of the game. How many stories do you have to play through before embarking on the current expansion’s story? Are they good stories and DO YOU FINISH THEM!? I’d rather do something I enjoy for hours than sit and watch paint dry for 20 minutes. Vanilla WoW, which was unmatched in its player investment and retention told 6 or 7 stories before max level. This seems like a really good number to aim for.

-Permanence: The last reason for the level squish should be to lock max level. To fix every kind of number creep once and for all and never need to rework the entire game again, as they have for all the various number squishes. Let’s just do it, have a good “non-broken” game, and move on, shall we?

-What not to do: With all this in mind, a squish that sees Vanilla go from 1-25, BC from 25-30, LK from 30-35, etc. completely misses the point. You can’t just take the current levelling path and condense it. That misses the main purpose of a level squish, which is to create a consistent and engaging levelling experience that doesn’t need to be reworked two expansions down the road.

-Conclusion: A recurring theme in the above points is how well the levelling of Vanilla WoW was crafted and how much worse current levelling feels. The level squish needs to lean on this heavily. In fact, Vanilla levelling should make up the bulk of character levelling. That’s specifically what Kalimdor and the EK were designed for, far more than any expansion. If we squish to 60 levels, Vanilla should not be touched, except occasional tweaks that make it a better levelling game than what Cataclysm left us with.

2. Implementation

-Vanilla vs. Classic: Before we continue further, I want to create a distinction between 1.0 levelling (1-50), which I will refer to as “Vanilla”, and 1.x endgame content (50-60), which I will refer to as “Classic”. Think of Vanilla as the base levelling game, and Classic as the first expansion which was released at the same time. This is where the tweaks I mentioned above come in. The following storylines would make up the Classic expansion:

  • Searing Gorge -> Burning Steppes => Blackrock,
  • Un’Goro -> Silithus => AQ,
  • Plaguelands => Naxx,
  • and Onyxia’s Lair.

Winterspring should be Vanilla levelling content, as there’s no real endgame story there.

-The Levels: Without further ado, here are my proposed 1-60 levels for WoW.

  • 1-50: Vanilla levelling
  • 50-60: Every outdated expansion from Classic to BfA
  • Prestige Levels 1-10: Current expansion content.

-1-50: Vanilla: The EK & Kalimdor would be the core levelling content of WoW. This is where your toons would gain most of their levels. This is where new players learn the game and their class. Instead of being 10-15 year old content, zones would be refined into cohesive stand-alone stories that build up the general lore of Azeroth & its major themes, villains, heroes, and peoples. Rather than being tied to a time or expansion, stories would be timeless, and lorewise, always “current”.

-Zone completion: To incentivize players to fully play through zones, rewards would improve as you move through the story. Each zone would have 3 main phases of quests: 2 in the world and one in a zone dungeon (where possible). The first phase would give green items as rewards. The second phase would give greens with set bonuses for normal quests and blues for key quests. Finally, dungeons would give blue set pieces from trash and purples from bosses. After finishing off the big baddy of the zone (either dungeon or world boss), each zone would drop a single heirloom. This way, sticking out to the end of a story is more profitable than dropping it and moving to a higher level zone. Because of scaling, your rewards would be at the same level, but higher quality for the zones you’ve already started progress on.

-Story Engagement: At the same time, move quest hubs form the quest log to the world map, like how bonus zones and world quests work. That way from the world map you can see where the hubs you can go to are, what your progress in that hub is, and the rewards you get for completing the objectives. Include Legion style voiceovers and really bring the story of the zone visually and audibly to the forefront. WoW should TELL its story, not have its story passively available in your jumbled mess of a quest log.

-50-60: Campaigns: New players would actually be capped at 50. At 50, however, you get a letter from Chromie summoning you to the Caverns of Time. There, she tells your character some amazing news: YOU are the hero of Azeroth! Up until now, NPCs have treated you as a random adventurer, with a few looking at you curiously or whispering odd things as you pass. “Is that him/her!?” “No, it can’t be, he/she’s much more powerful!” “The resemblance is uncanny!” It turns out that in the past, you won victory in Outlands, defeated the Lich King, had Thrall KS Deathwing on you, etc, etc. All these feats you have accomplished! Just not yet from your perspective. This is why in later expansions NPCs treat you with more and more reverence, even if you’ve only been playing for a couple weeks. You have done all those great deeds in their past, they’re just still in your future. Chromie gives you a choice of all the old expansions to start with, and sets you off on your first Campaign™ and sends you back in time to the expansion of your choice with a new level cap of 60. Levels from 51-60 don’t come from XP, but rather from progression. Questing up to the expansion’s first Raid will ding you to 60. You can go back to Chromie at any time and begin another campaign if you don’t like the one you started. In theory, you could hit 58 by doing just the intro quests to every expansion, but as with Vanilla content, reward quality improves for sticking to a single story.

-Hero Classes: So how do we handle DK’s and DH’s? Start them at 45-50 and have their starter zones lead directly into their first Campaign. They don’t go to Chromie at all, and they start with a cap of 60. Experienced players CAN leave their Campaign and even visit Chromie and start up on another if they so wish, but new players will move seamlessly into the relevant storyline for their class.

-WTF are Prestige Levels? Rather than building from 60 up, new expansions would have 10 Prestige Levels which come from progress in the expansion. Your level underneath would still be 60. At the end of an expansion, Prestige Levels for that expansion would be translated into levels 51-60 as the expansion becomes another available Campaign. This way, rather than getting nerfed from 70 to 60 each expansion or having the level cap rise once again to mess up levelling, the expansion progress simply becomes obsolete, similar to what happened to artifact progression.

-Old Content: There would be two ways to experience old expansion content at max level. The first is to simply travel there. Doing this will allow you to use your Prestige power levels to blast through old dungeons & possibly even raids. This does not count towards your Campaign progress or grant Campaign-level awards. The second method is to use your HearthChrome™ to enter the old expansion through Chromie in the CoT. This puts you in Campaign mode, where your prestige levels have no effect and your items are scaled down to normal level 60 gear. This way, you can’t cheat your way to the Achievements and rewards for finishing a campaign, and you can basically do Timewalking for any end-game dungeon or raid ever made whenever you want, while still giving players a way to solo that content for gold or transmog.

-Raid Tier Sets: As a last bonus, every tier of raid gear would be at the same ilvl, meaning you can use set bonuses from any tier ever made in any raid! This could create some broken scenarios, but having players search for them and farm them would be half the fun! Forcing Blizzard to push out hotfixes because something from a BC raid makes SoO too easy. :slight_smile: Players should always have the opportunity to find ways to break the game.

3. Character Transition: So how does your toon go from 120 to 60? What about an alt at 73? At 42? Simply put, characters 60 and below would stay at the same level. Characters above 60, having “finished” Classic, become level 60. Since this would be done between expansions, no character would start out with prestige levels.

tl;dr / Summary

The important part of the levelling squish is to make WoW into a game with a good levelling system that never needs another <insert thing> squish again. To give a consistent, engaging, and rewarding levelling process with tangible benefits for caring about the story.

The crux of the level squish is to take all the old expansions and make them parallel 50-60 zones rather than linear zones that take up 60+ levels to slog through. To remove most of that content from the levelling experience and only require a player to play through ONE expansion per toon.

The levels should follow this pattern:

  • 1-50: Vanilla levelling zones (EK & Kalimdor)
  • 50-60: either Classic end-game or any ONE other old expansion.
  • 60+: Separate “Prestige” levels from 1 to 10 for the current expansion. These become 51-60 when the expansion is over and becomes another optional 50-60 levelling zone.

Finally, zones should be updated with modern quest tech that moves quests from the quest log to easily readable map icons, like bonus objectives or world quests.

8 Likes

Any form of level squish does not matter as so much has been pruned from the game that you can’t possibly spread out your 3-5 main abilities over x levels. I remember having to train like smite rank 9 in my spell book back then lol. Storytelling goes right out the window after the first pass through. Leveling isn’t slow enough to support 50 quest zones to even zones like ICC with 140 quests. I don’t think there is any need for a squish anymore as it just messes up all values/stats/old world gear, and blizzard just keeps getting slower and slower to fix bugs.

If we’re being completely honest, I think wow is over in terms of suiting the leveling experience as the main part of the game. This was obviously evident in classic (as 95% of the game for people was getting to 60, very few even touched raiding), but I think most (excluding new players) just Zerg rush it in a day and don’t give a second thought. I get that some people might chill and enjoy the lore, but even that can only be stretched out so far. To me, it sounds like you want all these amazing features (don’t get me wrong, it would be cool) for leveling, but it’s evident that wow has quickly been focused more on the end game rather than leveling being the main experience of the game.

Also I think timewalking is the laziest game design in the universe, it doesn’t even mirror the actual gameplay in difficulty. They prob do it for a quick copy paste to please ppl, but I’d rather them just make something new than “do dragon soul at 85 while doing 5x the damage!”

2 Likes

We don’t need a level squish.

We need Blizzard to cut the bullcrap and give us back meaningful rewards for leveling. That means spell ranks, talent points, glyph slots, abilities, and everything else they’ve pruned over the years to make leveling a boring slog.

With all that stuff back, leveling won’t feel empty as it does now.

14 Likes

We really do. Especially if it means not having to slog through every old expansion on every new toon. Especially if it means that slog doesn’t get longer and longer every expansion. 60-120 is the worst part of levelling, and this implementation would remove it entirely.

Have you seen Bellular’s video about this? His rejection of the squish was childishly simply, but something like his hybrid talent tree, where you get the current “prime talent” ranks with an old-style talent tree between each rank would EASILY fill up 60 levels. You could have 1 talent point every level with a spell/ability every other level.

It’ll feel pretty close to the same with 120+ levels. But even if they did all that, spread across 60 levels still means twice as many rewards per level. A hard level cap still means no more squishes or reworks. Ever. A coherent, well designed levelling system still means more players trying WoW out and more players sticking with it.

Then there’s the buff to crafting while you level, where you get twice as much time to craft mats for current-level gear and get use out of that gear for twice as long. There are simply no reasons to want WoW to be 120 and so many reasons why the original design parameters of 60 levels suit this game far, far better.

your whole thing has good points but i also feel you are attempting to say screw all the expansions exept vanilla/classic like srs you have a thing for making players do classic in your how to implement and your tacking all other expacs as if they are dlc instead of a whole different part of the game 10 levels for all of those expacs that sounds like you should just wait for classic
and thought it through is a understatement if you took that advice whenever you thought of it made your own backstory and used some of that you could have made a whole diff game wich honestly if you did i prob would be 1 playing at on the side but instead your remade classic with your own twist and attempted to suggest it to blizz

gl im goin to bed

Forum Mod Edit: This post has been edited by a moderator due to language. https://us.battle.net/forums/en/code-of-conduct/

2 Likes

I honestly rather they come out and say hey look we have gone as far as we have gone with World of Warcraft…and just create World of Warcraft 2, rather then start reverting to any type of squishing.

4 Likes

My thoughts I posted in another level squish thread

TL DR: Leveling definitely needs to be fixed but a squish isnt the way to do it. They neex to add rewards and/or shortcuts to the leveling experience. Not take stuff away to make what we have currently seem “good enough”.

I’m definitely against a level squish personally. If the major issue is not feeling rewarded with abilities and such for leveling then the solution should be to add more spells. Frankly I find it completely ridiculous that Blizzard thinks that removing levels is a more viable and doable solution than adding more spells.

I know they’re super worried about “ability bloat” and while I disagree I can at least see where they’re coming from. An easy middle ground would be to add earnable spell cosmetics or something like that. Something similar to glyphs that let you change your spell appearance if you want. That way you’re earning something without blizz having to worry about new effects, interactions, or balance. FFXIV for example, has some of their spells upgrade to cooler looking more powerful versions. You feel stronger but your rotation in many cases is unchanged because of the spell “upgrade”. Something similar to this would work great IMO.

Another issue is how the level squish is implemented. Is it the same amount of xp needed but less levels? In this case leveling will feel slower overall and not actually fix anything. Are they going to reduce the amount of xp to hit max as well as lowering the level? If that’s the case the level squish seems redundant (IMO) and they could nerf just the actual xp needed.

We’ve had a few stat squishes already now and each time it brings balancing issues and problems with old content not being scaled correctly I can only imagine a level squish will cause even more issues as they are an even more foundational feature to the game than stats.

My next issue is the question of sustainability. What happens when we get back to the 100+ level range again? Do they do another level squish? That’s what happens with stats every couple xpacs now. Imagine vanilla content being squished to say 40. 40 levels for vanilla content doesnt seem too off. What about the 2nd level squish though? 25 or 30 levels for vanilla? imagine awkward that would feel, especially for long time players. What about the level for the xpacs? most are already 10 levels for the xpac and would likely be reduced to 5 in the first go. If there was a 2nd squish you’d have 2 or 3 levels for the entire xpac. MoP and Cata would be a level a piece unless they only squished specific xpacs.

To wrap my up my rather long post, I feel that Blizzard favoring a level squish highlights a major flaw in their design philosophy. That philosophy being their “enrichment through reduction” approach. For the past few xpacs Blizzard has taken the stance that they can fix issues in the game by taking stuff out and removing content. We saw this most recently with the portals issue. They wanted to make the world feel bigger so they took out portals. We’ve seen this with spell pruning, removing vendors, flying, and others.

This approach, even if they’re right and it fixes whatever issue they were trying to fix, has constant and serious consequence. No one likes it when you take their stuff. Even if someone doesn’t care about something, if someone else takes it then they’ll get angry. No matter how effective or well-intended a change (removal) maybe, at least some players will feel punished. Blizz took something that they had and it feels bad.

Blizzard (imo) should instead be adding Incentives to play differently if that’s what they want. Add a speed or xp boost if you’ve gone X amount of time without flying or X amount of time without using a portal. Add randomly spawning treasures in more locations with better rewards to reward exploration. Obviously some removal of content is unavoidable but it shouldn’t be the go-to fix for the majority of problems. This will apply to the level squish. If they take away players levels, levels that they’ve had for years and years, then people are going to get angry about it.

3 Likes

Please, PLEASE never bring this back. Spell ranks were the worst.

Did you not read the op at all? The main feature is reducing the number of zones you go through to less than 10. That’s far better story-telling, and having so many options means you could level a bunch of characters without ever needing to repeat the same zones.

Th… that’s the point? confused

Between 7.3.5, Ion admitting levelling is “broken”, and the current talk of a level squish, it seems this is an oversight they’re putting a LOT of resources into fixing. They seem to WANT a player who wants to play a fun levelling game to be happy with WoW. That is so much easier to do with 60 levels.

Did you miss the part where you could replay every old expansion as either old or max-level content and get achievements and rewards for it? Or run every raid in the game as max-level content whenever you wanted? The Kalimdor & EK zones are simply the best zones in the game for levelling because they’re the only zones designed for prolonged levelling and not to set up and end-game which no one cares about anymore. It makes sense to level up there, then do 1 expansion as an “enrichment” experience and then just let players get into the current expac.

This is basically what they did with BC & Wrath or Cata & MoP, except with every expansion at once.

How to implement a level squish:

  1. You don’t. Find a solution that won’t mechanically destroy the game since Blizzard can barely squish stats and ilvls without wrecking balance.

/thread

16 Likes

was bout to sleep saw your typing got curious and wow was i right you said replay the content instead of play through it kalimdor & ek SIMPLY best zones for leveling jesus did you walk out of a classic love to death club your saying all expansions are a enrichment to the game something that makes it better yet your also saying everything vanilla is the best and should be the whole focus of leveling making expansions like i said dlc or in my terms optional content so you can techniucly go through vanilla then skip to last expac and be whoopdeedoo and never even know the lich king existed unless someone suggest you try that content jesus im done apparently the meds aint wearing off you and your still vieing towards a concept id prefer as a whole new game if you were smart enough to make this concept try story telling a game or working with some people who can story tell with your concept

Literally what I’m suggesting.

Read the parts about story. It would actually fix a great deal.

That’s what they did from Wrath to WoD and what “broke” levelling in the first place. Blasting through zones you never finish while meaningless, valueless levels fly by is the opposite of good game-building.

Except all this does is re-number each expansion’s levels to 51-60. Relative power levels would stay exactly the same. With the current level-scaling tech, it would be completely superficial.

Wut.

You didn’t even read the tl;dr, did you?

This would mean no more stat/ilvl squishes EVER.

oh almost forgot your concept would never fly at blizz unless they made each expack a dlc buy on the store and lets be honest then the game would look more like borderlands 2 1 game like 30 dlc

Best. for. levelling. For levelling. Because they are designed specifically to only be levelling zones. There are many other things expansion content does. Like setting up that expansion’s endgame.

A semi truck may be the best for hauling trailers, but that doesn’t mean it’s “better” than a Ferrari. A slotted spoon is an awful choice for pouring soup. A ladle, which is designed for pouring soup is much better at pouring soup.

The levelling experience is just that: a levelling experience. It should happen in zones designed to be levelling zones. Endgame experience is endgame experience. It should be done in zones designed to be part of the endgame. Expansions are designed as endgame experience.

Chaining 7 endgame setups one after the other makes a really bad levelling experience. Because it’s not made for that. That content shouldn’t be thrown away, however, so each toon should still go through at least one expansion before hitting max level.

90% of current “vanilla” levelling is actually Cata. So your Vanilla fixation is even more off.

You can already do that. BC and Wrath are both 60-80 zones, so you can level completely in BC and never set foot in Northrend.

1 Like

im done your un doable im turning my phone off and my pcs alerts you are unhelpable you just said oh you can already do that but instead of skiping 1 zone in your thing you would be able to skip all expansions and pick whatever the internet says is bets for those who google best rout out of all those expacs you would skip a multitude of storys the game has a small comunity when it comes to full blown story every quest types and most starters will be asking not whats intresting but whats best theres the problem instead of forcing some exploration to see al;l these different places and making them wonder about more they would be fuinneled through the BEST route or Fastest and on the cata thing same damn zones pretty damn much and im god dang done
good night sir i bid you horrible days

Can I send you some punctuation? Wow, that’s almost unintelligible.

You realise what “those people” do now? They level in dungeons. And those expansion stories aren’t full stories, because the whole expansion is a setup for the raids. What they’d be skipping is the first chapter of seven different stories they never finish.

Yes, we should be able to skip most expansion content. When you play through just the first couple zones, as most people do, they’re incoherent, pointless, mechanically inconsistent, and boring.

Old expansions should be available as optional content for people who want to explore, not as levelling content.

Do you really want to force every new toon to play through every zone of every expansion before being able to hit max level? That would take a month!

I don’t know why you’re so focused on forcing people to do things. I’d rather create a good experience and give people as many options as I can.

Are you really getting this petty and worked up over theory-crafting discussion? Well, sir, I hope you have much better days to come. Seems you could use them. :frowning:

Only if they hardcap max level and I don’t think you’ll find very many players who are keen to permanently be capped at 60 for the rest of the game’s life, “Prestige” or no (having your prestige not carry over is the same as constantly being level squished, by the way… at least from the player’s perspective). If you’re going to have Prestige levels, even if they reset or don’t carry over or however you want to explain it, there’s no reason to not just continue growing the max level the way we’ve always done and just keep doing stat squishes. The squishes may still break things on occasion, but they’re far less potentially destructive than attempting to change the entire game on such a fundamental level to fix such a small problem. Your suggestions are something you do in a game that was built from the ground up to have them, not shoehorn them into a game already pushing 20 years old and works in a completely different way.

The zone scaling they implemented went a long way in aiding the “storytelling” aspect, it just needs refinement. Not that it matters since 99% of players blow right through quests as quickly as possible and don’t read or care about the text or story anyway.

The most prominent and really the only legitimate complaint is the large gap between rewards, and the simple solution to that is to fill in the gaps with the traits and abilities that have been pruned out over the years. There’s enough in the trash pile to fill in the current gaps and any future gaps for years to come. Or they could dust off the creative part of their brains and start thinking up new things that bolster class fantasy.

You dont have to slog through every old expansion.

2 Likes

You kind of do. It doesn’t matter at what pace you take to go through them, but no matter what at the very least from 60 - 80 you have to go through Burning Crusade or Wrath of the Lich King content; from 80 - 90 you have to go through Cataclysm or Mists of Pandaria content; from 90 - 100 you have to go through Warlords of Draenor; from 100 - 110 you _have to go through Legion. If this keeps up, from 110 - 120 you’ll have to go through Battle for Azeroth.

There are ways to circumvent it all but if you choose not to take those routes - either because you’re unaware or because you don’t feel like it - you still have to follow a largely linear leveling progression through old expansions in order to get to the newest content.

My proposal is to just cut the fat completely out - hard cap the game at 60, revamp the Vanilla-Classic zones to be updated with the most recent story, then have players go through the newest content at 60 to unlock the newest raid tiers, newest gear, newest forms of character improvement. Give players access to the older expansions once they reach 60 so that they can go back and earn all of those rewards.

a level squish will not fix the problem with leveling being unrewarding. the time per level would go up dramatically, so it would be the same amount of time without a reward. adding to the talent system, a new perks system or something similar would be a much better solution.

3 Likes
  • how to implement a level squish

Don’t.
Whew, glad we do that out of the way

9 Likes