How to fix Warrior

Classes Warrior
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Warrior is currently a complete mess and Blizzard is clearly clueless how to fix the class regardless of its overall power. It was a mess even before it was nerfed, it’s just that now it’s both a mess and does terrible DPS. Here’s some recommendations on how to fix this class for arms and fury:

Arms:

-Revert the blademaster’s torment change. Everybody said this was stupid when it was announced and we were ignored. Nobody uses it, and that’s a big sign that the change was a bad one. If it’s no longer a choice, you messed up.

-Arms has too many redundant buttons. Remove either whirlwind or cleave from arms. There’s no reason to have both. Make sweeping strikes passive and baked into another ability. Why does slam even exist? Why is hamstring not a passive when almost every other class has snares baked into their existing abilities?

CLARIFICATION: I know cleave replaces whirlwind as arms, but cleave should just be baseline as arms, and whirlwind as fury. It makes more sense thematically.

-Clean up the talent trees, especially the class tree. Skullsplitter should be a proc or passive, nobody wants more buttons as arms. Literally nobody asked for champion’s spear to remain a part of our talents. Remove thunderous roar and champion’s spear and give us ancient shockwave and banner instead. Wrecking throw is useless. Shattering throw should be baseline. Get rid of colossus smash and warbreaker. Relying on these “damage windows” just means that we’re useless outside of them since the entire spec has to be balanced around them.

-How is warrior, one of the most “mobile” classes in the game one of the easiest to kite? If you’re going to emphasize mobility for this spec, maybe arms some kind of snare suppression so we can do more than waddle towards people as they kite us into oblivion.

-Rage gen is a joke as arms. We either generate a lot of rage and can’t spend it, or don’t generate enough to press our buttons.

-Sharpen blade should be a passive. (PvP only of course)

-Why is Arms focused on bleeds? What part of “master of weapons” means stomping and yelling at people so loud they bleed? That doesn’t even make sense. What happened to the extra attacks we used to get? Why does arms in basically every expansion from vanilla → wod play better than current arms?

Fury:

-Fury is way too spammy and that playstyle is now mandatory since annihilator was removed, despite the community being upset at its removal. It’s to the point where I’m rerolling simply because fury hurts to play anymore, and I’ve been maining warrior since 2005.

-Give warriors a way to play with 1h. Either make SMF viable, or remove it and let 2h be transmogged to 1h. People have been asking for this literally since TG was put into the game.

-Buff Anger Management. Why is Reckless Abandon still mandatory? The nodes below these two are also trash. Reckless abandon is just too strong to not take currently. I would rather see our baseline damage buffed and remove RA entirely, and just turn that node from a choice node into AM only.

-If you’re going to gut the class just because Odyn’s Fury was strong, just get rid of Odyn’s Fury. Or make it a passive buff to whirlwind.

-Why does the class with the original execute still have the worst execute in the game? Seriously? Execute should always be our hardest hitting ability, that was literally the point of it from the beginning.

General class changes:

-Get rid of slam, shield slam, and shield block as baseline abilities. They don’t need to exist for all specs. Only prot even uses the later two (they should be baseline prot) and slam is a useless filler ability that could be easily removed and the rest of our kit could be changed to compensate.

-If you remove Odyn’s Fury, the rest of our cleave damage can be buffed to compensate. Our single target is already trash, so just buff Cleave, Whirlwind and our main rotational abilities to make up for it.

-Give us some sort of auto snare passive and get rid of hamstring, or make hamstring have a better range and slow more. A lot of classes just currently walk away from us in pvp because our snares are trash.

-Give all 3 specs ignore pain baseline. Slightly nerf fury self healing if you have to.

-Spell reflect needs a buff, there’s so many trash spells or spells getting thrown out that it gets eaten and you have no idea what happened half the time. EDIT: PvP change, not referring to pve.

-Rework meat cleaver and sweeping strikes so that they’re passives so we can stop giving people carpal tunnel when they play this class.

Obviously not everyone is going to agree with all of this, but I think if even half of these changes happened the community would be a lot more positive about this class right now.

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Nice essay, lots of passion. Too bad devs dont care to read any of the posts in this forum.

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Yeah, I mean even if they do read it there’s no way I’d ever know since they don’t post here or respond to anyone. It’s just crickets and that’s one of the reasons the playerbase is (rightfully) so jaded.

Hopefully someone sees it and at least considers some of these changes. Our class needs reworked badly.

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Actually one of the Top Arms Warriors in Korea for Mythic + is using Blademaster’s Torment, and its beginning to gain attention to players due to its synergies with Collateral Damage.

If you spec into Cleave, you lose access to Whirlwind. It’s currently impossible to have both at the moment.

Because we need a filler attack. Otherwise we’d have access to three rotational abilities before execute (Mortal Strike, Overpower and Rend). We’ve had Warrior before where we didn’t have access to additional procs and necessary filler abilities during WoD where our rotation was Maintain Rend > CS > MS > WW if you had rage, and it was the biggest mistake that’s ever been made for Arms Warrior. You sat around doing nothing, and it was dreadful. Slam is a fine ability that does the job we need it to.

A lot of this just PVP groaning, but you’re off about a ton of things in this post, when it comes to PVE, lack an understanding of things like Damage Profiles (Which is why Sweeping Strikes is still a casted ability), and others.

Arms (and the Warrior class tree) needs adjustments but it doesn’t a sledgehammer, like you’re suggesting.

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Actually one of the Top Arms Warriors in Korea for Mythic + is using Blademaster’s Torment, and its beginning to gain attention to players due to its synergies with Collateral Damage.

That’s fair, I don’t like mythic+ so I don’t do it or pay much attention to it. It’s still a bad change though since it went from being good in all content to being good in only 1 type of content.

If you spec into Cleave, you lose access to Whirlwind. It’s currently impossible to have both at the moment.

That’s on me for wording it poorly. My point was more, cleave thematically makes sense for arms, why is whirlwind baseline and then turns into cleave? Just make cleave baseline for arms, whirlwind for fury. There’s a lot of things like that for warrior.

Because we need a filler attack. Otherwise we’d have access to three rotational abilities before execute (Mortal Strike, Overpower and Rend). We’ve had Warrior before where we didn’t have access to additional procs and necessary filler abilities during WoD where our rotation was Maintain Rend > CS > MS > WW if you had rage, and it was the biggest mistake that’s ever been made for Arms Warrior. You sat around doing nothing, and it was dreadful. Slam is a fine ability that does the job we need it to.

Slam does a very small percentage of our damage overall, roughly 2-3% on most fights. That damage can easily be moved to other abilities and cooldowns can be adjusted slightly to compensate so it isn’t needed. Not to mention the fact that slam is baseline for all 3 specs which makes even less sense since only arms ever uses it.

And during WoD, the situation you speak of was rectified with the set bonus in hellfire citadel, and arms felt MUCH better in HFC than it does now.

A lot of this just PVP groaning, but you’re off about a ton of things in this post, when it comes to PVE, lack an understanding of things like Damage Profiles (Which is why Sweeping Strikes is still a casted ability), and others.

Arms (and the Warrior class tree) needs adjustments but it doesn’t a sledgehammer, like you’re suggesting.

I wouldn’t say that cleaning up the trees is “taking a sledgehammer” to it. More like giving it a cohesive vision which it does not currently have.

And yeah I have several points here that are PvP based as I play both aspects of the game and always have. So both of them are important to me, and I’m going to talk about both, not dismiss one aspect of the game in favor of another. Blizzard has to consider both when they design a class and so will I when I criticize their design.

Your downplaying of the overall post based on a couple of misunderstandings (on both our parts) is silly, but I’m not going to argue semantics. Our talents need a re-design and I don’t think it’s unhealthy to have that discussion regardless.

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I usually dislike such posts, but most of your points actually make sense to me.
Good analysis

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I agree with a lot of your points. I’d like the option to go Bleeds or Direct Damage but don’t see them being able to balance it at all and most warriors prefer big hits. Sweeping Strikes still feels awful to press, At least make it cast Cleave or have it enabled by casting Cleave if it hits 2 targets.

Some ideas I have which I realize aren’t entirely practical and would require a lot of work but would make the spec feel better:

  • Change our Mastery to anything else. It’s just a mini-Colossus Smash which makes them balance around it like you said.

  • The new Blademaster’s Torment was fun when Unhinged worked with Sweeping Strikes still so you got double MS cleave while Bladestorming but they got rid of that interaction/synergy. Now it’s only good for spamming Cleave and very niche for most players.

  • Legion Sweeping Strikes was good imo and hit 2 targets for a bit less damage but it was passive.

  • They could make Slam cost more rage and be a big rage dump since sometimes you’re in a proc drought and just hitting Slam until MS or OP comes back up which is simply boring. Other times you’re overloaded with procs, same with rage being feast or famine.

  • MS hits like a wet noodle until you have tier procs/OP stacks and Executioner’s Precision and it also crits. It’s just too much setup for an iconic ability that should hit hard baseline.

  • Make Spear a pvp talent and replace it with Maldraxxus Banner/Ancient Aftershock which would both give utility, AA stunning and Banner buffing your group. Could also add another option to the node. Spear is only used for the Crit Damage it gives and was way better in SL due to the cooldown reduction with Mikanikos soulbind, at least for Fury.

  • Remove the rage cost for Impending Victory or add a chance to heal depending on how much rage you spend. We’re incredibly squishy unless you’re in a premade and have a healer hovering you.

Realistically all we’re getting for this expansion are some tweaks to our talents.

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Big agree on the mastery point, I miss when we got extra swings with mastery.

The sweeping strikes part is pretty much what I would envision - hit your cleave ability to make your other attacks cleave, just like meat cleaver. It’s much more engaging than current sweeping strikes.

In general I’m not a fan of how many damage modifiers we have in the game currently. I would rather have abilities just do proper damage, and have more interesting procs such as cooldown resets, making other abilities cleave, or applying dots. Needing to build up 3 different damage mods to actually hit hard with your main ability just feels bad, regardless of class.

And yeah I have never liked champion’s spear, even when it was first introduced. It’s clunky, the delay means it misses its target a lot of the time, and in pvp many classes can just ignore it and walk/blink out of it. In pvp it’s basically the least interesting option of all of the covenant abilities we could’ve kept, and instead we lost the best ones. Ancient shockwave would be incredible for dungeons and trash, it was a very satisfying button to press.

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Can we PLEASE move away from haste as a warrior? Especially arms PLEASE BLIZZARD, change the mastery holy jesus

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At the moment none of the Fights in Anub’ar Palace benefit from it (largely because Fury is just better at the encounters than Arms is) but there could be future encounters where two-target cleave (Arm’s Damage Niche) could be very good. The biggest problem with this talent is simply the lack of Single Target benefit you get for choosing that capstone talent. Blademaster’s Torment in DF was fine mainly because of Hurricane (Stacking Strength Buff while Channeling), but Hurricane added a fair amount of complication with Arms’ AOE builds.

Not an uncommon thing across a lot of classes. Either you need to spec for a specific for your AoE with things like Beast Cleave for BM or Ice Caller for Frost Mages.

The reason WW is available is because its the base for the class. Without Whirlwind Warriors don’t learn any AoE while leveling up. It could be used to free up a talent point for the ARms tree, but there are far more egregious talent choices blocking good talent selection like Improved Overpower, Impale, Bloodbourne, and Strength of Arms. Cleave by itself is fine for us to talent into, especially since it helps apply mastery to multiple targets.

So than what do you do when you’re capped on Rage, and have no Overpower procs? Do we just sit around reapplying Rend all day? Do we just sit on our hands? There’s a reason Slam exists; it exist as a filler. Could it be more interesting? Maybe but the need for another ability rather than sitting around is very important to playstyle that players have voiced.

Correct, but that’s not the point I’m making with referencing WOD Arms. HFC + Tier + Class Trinket doesn’t’ change the fact that for High Maul and BRF, that players did not enjoy arms’ playstyle of waiting for something to happen.

You mentioned close to a half a dozen gameplay changes to Arms alone, that’s before we even talk about what you said to Fury or the base Class tree. If that isn’t a sledgehammer I don’t know what is.

I never said you should. I simply stated a lot of your concerns such as…

  • Wrecking Throw not having a use despite it being used a lot in Dragonflight when it was easier to path into
  • Mobility being a concern despite having two charges, a leap, intervene, and way to break roots with Slayer Hero Talent Tree.
  • Your idea that Arms is focused on Bleeds when bleeds are only making up 14% (Roughly) of your damage in a raid encounter.

Are all PvP concerns, and aren’t things that are apart of PvE.

It comes from a professional standpoint. Your post is hard to parse (In one paragraph a lone you talk about 4 different talents), goes off on tangents, is filled with things that necessarily aren’t true, and comes off as a really big rant.

Largely it sounds like change for the sake of change, as opposed to what you want which is, “giving it a cohesive vision”.

I’m sorry if I came off as dismissive, but if you want your feedback to be heard and read, it has to presented well, and not speaking in absolutes like, “If it’s no longer a choice, you messed up.” or, “Literally nobody asked for champion’s spear to remain a part of our talents.”

Also I would avoid tilting feedback you wana give as, “Fixing Warrior”. Avoid insulting developers they’re humans too.

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At the moment none of the Fights in Anub’ar Palace benefit from it (largely because Fury is just better at the encounters than Arms is) but there could be future encounters where two-target cleave (Arm’s Damage Niche) could be very good. The biggest problem with this talent is simply the lack of Single Target benefit you get for choosing that capstone talent. Blademaster’s Torment in DF was fine mainly because of Hurricane (Stacking Strength Buff while Channeling), but Hurricane added a fair amount of complication with Arms’ AOE builds.

I would still rather have a talent that helps in all content than one that’s so niche.

Not an uncommon thing across a lot of classes. Either you need to spec for a specific for your AoE with things like Beast Cleave for BM or Ice Caller for Frost Mages.

And it’s something that should be cleaned up for all classes.

The reason WW is available is because its the base for the class. Without Whirlwind Warriors don’t learn any AoE while leveling up. It could be used to free up a talent point for the ARms tree, but there are far more egregious talent choices blocking good talent selection like Improved Overpower, Impale, Bloodbourne, and Strength of Arms. Cleave by itself is fine for us to talent into, especially since it helps apply mastery to multiple targets.

Exactly…I’m saying they should change that and make cleave the baseline for arms, whirlwind for fury, and tclap for prot. We don’t need whirlwind as the baseline aoe for all 3 specs, it doesn’t make sense.

So than what do you do when you’re capped on Rage, and have no Overpower procs? Do we just sit around reapplying Rend all day? Do we just sit on our hands? There’s a reason Slam exists; it exist as a filler. Could it be more interesting? Maybe but the need for another ability rather than sitting around is very important to playstyle that players have voiced.

I literally already explained that.

Correct, but that’s not the point I’m making with referencing WOD Arms. HFC + Tier + Class Trinket doesn’t’ change the fact that for High Maul and BRF, that players did not enjoy arms’ playstyle of waiting for something to happen.

I’m aware, I was there. But people complained and they fixed it, and HFC was half of the expansion anyway.

You mentioned close to a half a dozen gameplay changes to Arms alone, that’s before we even talk about what you said to Fury or the base Class tree. If that isn’t a sledgehammer I don’t know what is.

Sure, whatever you want to call it I guess.

I never said you should. I simply stated a lot of your concerns such as…

  • Wrecking Throw not having a use despite it being used a lot in Dragonflight when it was easier to path into
  • Mobility being a concern despite having two charges, a leap, intervene, and way to break roots with Slayer Hero Talent Tree.
  • Your idea that Arms is focused on Bleeds when bleeds are only making up 14% (Roughly) of your damage in a raid encounter.

I’m not talking about DF wrecking throw, I’m talking about how bad it is now.

Having multiple mobility options is great, until you get targeted by classes that have much stronger snares and just as much or more mobility. Our mobility is great in pve, and terrible in pvp.

Are you trying to say arms isn’t focused on bleeds when we have a bleed based mastery and several abilities that apply bleeds, and skullsplitter that makes bleeds tick faster? And bloodborne? What?

Largely it sounds like change for the sake of change, as opposed to what you want which is, “giving it a cohesive vision”.

So specific criticisms of talents and and baseline abilities to create a better class fantasy (that most people seem to be agreeing with except you) is just “change for the sake of change”? Ok bud.

I’m sorry if I came off as dismissive, but if you want your feedback to be heard and read, it has to presented well, and not speaking in absolutes like, “If it’s no longer a choice, you messed up.” or, “Literally nobody asked for champion’s spear to remain a part of our talents.”

Good design is not “let’s replace this talent everyone wants to use with a talent nobody wants to use”. And maybe I’m wrong but I have never heard a single person who is excited about spear. I have heard a lot of complaints about it though.

Also I would avoid tilting feedback you wana give as, “Fixing Warrior”. Avoid insulting developers they’re humans too.

I’m a developer myself, consider it constructive criticism.

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I highly doubt that. You wouldn’t walk into work and say, “Hey this thing you spent a ton of time on is awful, and this is how you fix it”, let alone in something as collaborative heavy as Game Development.

You also lack reading comprehension skills and can’t hold a conversation with points people are talking about. For example…

This comment still ignores the point I’m making. Players do not like Dead GCDs in their rotation. Removing slam without adding something else would result in GCDs where nothing happens.

Its not about them fixing Arms in HFC. It’s about avoiding empty GCDs where players aren’t pressing buttons too frequently. Without slam you could have portions of your rotation where you just don’t press a button for roughly 4 seconds. That was the point I was making when I talked about WoD Arms, and than clarified specifically about the portion of the expansion I was referring to.

If a talent is good in all content, it no longer becomes a choice. That’s already a problem that you’ve already pointed out that the Warrior Class tree already has an issue with. Why wouldn’t you want a more nebulous talents that’s only good in specific scenarios, so that we can actually have some freedom in the tree?

Obviously Blizzard disagrees here.

You can thank the Unpruning during Shadowlands for that. People wanted classes to be classes and not three separate mini-classes that don’t share spells. Even some Warriors pointed out that it was silly that they forgot how to spin in a circle just because they specced Arms or Prot.

You haven’t. You’ve stated, “Bake the damage into the other abilities” but have yet to make point a of what you do with the empty GCDs left behind by removing Slam.

Is it bad now? Or just not taken because of routing in our class tree? Wrecking Throw would find use in Stone Vault, Anub’ar Palace (Silken Court & Queen Ansurek), Mists of Tirna Scithe, and Necroic Wake. All of thoes have important shields that need to be broken ASAP. The only reason we can’t take those talents, despite us taking them in Dragonflight, is our talent tree pathing. That’s not a problem with Wrecking Throw. That’s a problem with class tree design.

So adding more baseline mobility is not the answer. That just creates mobility creep where every ranged player that’s not a Mage (and this has happened before in the past) gets run over.

Arms has bleeds in its kit, but its largely something that’s very passive outside of Rend and Skullsplitter. Moving damage away from the few bleeds we have, means your damage output becomes 0 when forced away from a target. I wouldn’t call Arms a bleed spec, just like I wouldn’t call Destruction Warlock a dot spec because they maintain Immolate on a target. Bleeds play a part of Arms’ damage profile, but by no means is it a dot or a bleed class.

If you actually had some coherent criticism it might. Here let me give you an example.

This doesn’t do a good job of explaining the rage economy issue or even the issues you have with it. Rewording what you’re saying to be,

"I’ve found that as Arms, despite the changes made in TWW from Dragonflight, I’m still having issues with Rage Economy. In PvE, sometimes I don’t have enough rage to perform my rotation (usually around the execute phase). Other times I have too much rage and can’t find a way to spend it due to Martial Prowess procs or a lucky string of critical strikes. This also changes tremendously depending on if I have the Shaman buff Skyfury, or if I spec into Skullspliter.

This issue makes me feel like I don’t have control or mastery over my specialization. It can feel like I’m doing everything right, but either end up with a capped rage bar I can’t spend, or not enough rage to do maintain my standard rotation."

Notice how I specifically cited scenarios on when Rage was an issue and when it wasn’t? Notice how I didn’t state an absolute and specifically cited my own experiences and no one elses? Notice how I mentioned influences from other aspects of the game (Such as having a Shaman buff you)? Notice how I used descriptor words about how that makes me feel versus just calling it “A joke”?

That’s how you give impactful feedback that gets heard by the developers.

We’ve already discussed the fact that this talent is currently being explored by M+ DPS Arms Warriors.

But that’s your own opinion, not an absolute. I personally have no problem with Champion’s Spear now that we don’t have to stand in the Spear to get the bonus effects of Champion’s Might. I also used it a lot in Shadowlands, and even a few times in Dragonflight during mythic progress. You can say, “I don’t like Champion’s Spear.” You can’t claim, “Literally nobody asked for champion’s spear to remain a part of our talents.”

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Your posts are often boring well " actually"

Seriously the poster is conveying legitimate gripes, and he has to listen to some spreadsheet thumping well actually I write guides and well you know the thing is there is a man in nantucket with a gimpy leg who on tuesdays using the blademaster torment when there is a full moon for grim batol third boss.

What a slight larger WW burst hit?

lol

I think you don’t understand gaming in general and general player sentiment or the role-play aspect or feel of a character in game.

Plus, you play a panda so from now on we are going to ignore your posts.

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This is the unfortunate result of two ability prunes, followed by an unprune that brought back a lot of abilities no one even wanted back, on top of constant talent tree reworks and overhauls over the years.

The game is a mess. A mess caused by constantly changing developer mindsets (or even just constantly changing developers given ActiBlizz’s penchant for layoffs). A mess caused by management that has no idea what it’s doing and is in desperate need of soul searching.

That’s why we currently have four versions of the damn game and barely enough qualify testing to maintain one of them. I’d like to know where this is headed, but the truth is no one knows.

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I highly doubt that. You wouldn’t walk into work and say, “Hey this thing you spent a ton of time on is awful, and this is how you fix it”, let alone in something as collaborative heavy as Game Development.

I both don’t care whether you believe me or not, and don’t care what your opinion is on how people should act in a field you are obviously clueless about. If somebody is doing something wrong or making something bad and you aren’t willing to speak up, you aren’t doing them a favor. The difference is that I don’t work for blizzard and I’m not on their team - I’m a paying customer giving feedback on a game I’ve played for 20 years, and on a class I’ve mained for just as long. If you’re offended that someone is being honest, the problem is you.

You also lack reading comprehension skills and can’t hold a conversation with points people are talking about. For example…

Ironic considering you are still talking about something I’ve pointed out that I already said for the 3rd time.

This comment still ignores the point I’m making. Players do not like Dead GCDs in their rotation. Removing slam without adding something else would result in GCDs where nothing happens.

If you actually read my original post, as I once again mention, I covered this already twice. It’s called modifying the cooldowns of other abilities to cover those gaps. Please go read the original post and my first response to you as it’s mentioned in both of them. I’m not going to keep rehashing the same response because you can’t be bothered and want to keep arguing over something I said and repeated multiple times.

If a talent is good in all content, it no longer becomes a choice. That’s already a problem that you’ve already pointed out that the Warrior Class tree already has an issue with. Why wouldn’t you want a more nebulous talents that’s only good in specific scenarios, so that we can actually have some freedom in the tree?

That’s the point, both talents are good in all content, the current version of blademaster’s torment is not. If blademaster’s torment was too strong, the solution is to buff warlord’s torment, not make blademaster’s torment useless in 90% of situations.

Obviously Blizzard disagrees here.

That’s fine. They can disagree and be wrong. It’s happened many times. I don’t think that’s what’s happening here though.

You can thank the Unpruning during Shadowlands for that. People wanted classes to be classes and not three separate mini-classes that don’t share spells. Even some Warriors pointed out that it was silly that they forgot how to spin in a circle just because they specced Arms or Prot.

And how many of those people are running around pressing whirlwind as prot currently? I get where they’re coming from, but just because it “logically” makes sense doesn’t mean it was a good idea.

You haven’t. You’ve stated, “Bake the damage into the other abilities” but have yet to make point a of what you do with the empty GCDs left behind by removing Slam.

As has been said ad nauseum, I already covered this. But here you go:

-Add more MS or OP resets
-Reduce the base cooldown of those abilities
-Make cleave baseline and use it as a filler

Pick one.

Is it bad now? Or just not taken because of routing in our class tree? Wrecking Throw would find use in Stone Vault, Anub’ar Palace (Silken Court & Queen Ansurek), Mists of Tirna Scithe, and Necroic Wake. All of thoes have important shields that need to be broken ASAP. The only reason we can’t take those talents, despite us taking them in Dragonflight, is our talent tree pathing. That’s not a problem with Wrecking Throw. That’s a problem with class tree design.

From what I’ve seen it doesn’t do much more than a juiced up mortal strike, so nobody uses it. There’s places you could move talents from and pick it up for those fights, yet none of the top parsers that I can find use it. If they’re hitting #1 on these fights and not using it, it’s probably not worth using in general. If you can find some data to prove me wrong I’d love to see it honestly.

So adding more baseline mobility is not the answer. That just creates mobility creep where every ranged player that’s not a Mage (and this has happened before in the past) gets run over.

The only things I recommended was adding snare suppression and a better snare. Even then I don’t think it’s going to help against evokers or frost mages currently.

Arms has bleeds in its kit, but its largely something that’s very passive outside of Rend and Skullsplitter. Moving damage away from the few bleeds we have, means your damage output becomes 0 when forced away from a target. I wouldn’t call Arms a bleed spec, just like I wouldn’t call Destruction Warlock a dot spec because they maintain Immolate on a target. Bleeds play a part of Arms’ damage profile, but by no means is it a dot or a bleed class.

If you think that a spec that has a bleed based mastery, 4 bleeds and an increased bleed speed ability (which iirc is only shared by one other spec - assassination) isn’t a bleed spec, I don’t know what to tell you. And yes, we’re a pure melee. If we’re not in melee range we aren’t doing damage. That’s kind of the point. We’re not ret paladins.

This doesn’t do a good job of explaining the rage economy issue or even the issues you have with it. Rewording what you’re saying to be,

"I’ve found that as Arms, despite the changes made in TWW from Dragonflight, I’m still having issues with Rage Economy. In PvE, sometimes I don’t have enough rage to perform my rotation (usually around the execute phase). Other times I have too much rage and can’t find a way to spend it due to Martial Prowess procs or a lucky string of critical strikes. This also changes tremendously depending on if I have the Shaman buff Skyfury, or if I spec into Skullspliter.

This issue makes me feel like I don’t have control or mastery over my specialization. It can feel like I’m doing everything right, but either end up with a capped rage bar I can’t spend, or not enough rage to do maintain my standard rotation."

Notice how I specifically cited scenarios on when Rage was an issue and when it wasn’t? Notice how I didn’t state an absolute and specifically cited my own experiences and no one elses? Notice how I mentioned influences from other aspects of the game (Such as having a Shaman buff you)? Notice how I used descriptor words about how that makes me feel versus just calling it “A joke”?

That’s how you give impactful feedback that gets heard by the developers.

Or I could just write a sentence that conveys the same thing without sounding like an arrogant dork sitting here WELL ACKSHUALLYing people for hours on end. Warriors relying on windfury for rage gen isn’t exactly a revelation, and if they know rage gen is a problem, they’re going to know how they can tweak it to fix it.

But that’s your own opinion, not an absolute. I personally have no problem with Champion’s Spear now that we don’t have to stand in the Spear to get the bonus effects of Champion’s Might. I also used it a lot in Shadowlands, and even a few times in Dragonflight during mythic progress. You can say, “I don’t like Champion’s Spear.” You can’t claim, “Literally nobody asked for champion’s spear to remain a part of our talents.”

Ok I’ll revise it. Nobody except the annoying guy I’m replying to likes Champion’s Spear. Now everyone is happy, let’s have ancient shockwave instead.

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I was literally complaining about some of the arms talents and especially colossus being absolute dog doo doo. I hate the mastery, it hasn’t changed in forever! No one ever runs mastery as arms. I also absolutely hate the bleed talents for arms. I do not understand the bleed at all. And mortal strike needs a dmg increase. There ain’t no way in heck that my execute phase is literally spam execute. So boring. I would like to build up for big mortal strikes but the dmg is literally worse than execute so there’s no point.

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Can’t stand champion spear. Only the most obnoxious people like a skill like that.

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Update on how to fix warrior: do the opposite of whatever this latest update is.

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Mythic became a cancer to this game honestly, you cannot speak anything without people saying NO, because mythic. People became more entitled than mythic raiders

Yep to this

This as well

Everyone and their mothers agree that whirlwind should be a fury skill and arms should have cleave, its basic, they just refuse to do it out of spite

IT even bad when arms need rage to use it, and fury not, why? arms rage regeneration is worse, why our cost?

This as well, Slam should apply rend at the very least to justify the button, or have the effect of skullsplinter, while rend is applied WITH mortal strike.

So much this, i literally can’t face mages and other slow heavy classes are a pain in the behind.

I was saying this in another thread, Avatar need to make you immune to Roots and slows at the very least, its awful to use the skill to be immediately frozen again in place, its deranged how other classes get full on immunity to it and we are stuck in place hopeless

Its because they want to make it different from FURY**, but ended up making this crap a bleed spec, it feels awful and unsatisfying

This, all the capstones except unhinged are crap, and we have 6, how this make any sense i dunno.

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They’re not gutting the class “just because OF is strong”. It should be merely competitive, not obligatory, yes, but you’re strawmanning the rationale here.

We don’t have both. You literally cannot have both. Which was arguably a change for the worse.

Why would we want it to be triggered from another ability? Alternatively, if you really mean that, see Blademaster’s Torment.

How would that remotely worse? We add Rend just to passively reduce Rend duration via passive “Skullsplitter” so that our tooltips say one thing but the result is another?

Slam is a dps increase over WW in ST for Fury, over an unprocced Revenge for Prot, and it the only filler Arms has until at Execute %HP.

Meanwhile, on Arms or Fury, just… don’t put them on your bar?

For my part, though, I’d rather just see Mortal Strike and Cleave hit 20% harder with a two-hander, be tuned around that, make even clearer which Fury abilities hit with both weapons, and then drop the handedness/-wield requirements from all but Shield Slam and Shield Block (since that connection to their slots are pretty obviously unavoidable).

They already did buff it. If you look back at Shadowlands, for instance, the 25% magic mitigation, which is already huge, didn’t persist through the first reflect.

Into what?

You’ve got to be kidding…

It doesn’t hit like the hardest because otherwise your other CDs would be reduced to, at best, Deep Wound maintenance (especially without EP, unless you’re comparing Execute even against that), and Sudden Death’s proc rate and Juggernaut’s scaling would have to be (at least) proportionately trimmed as Execute’s damage rises.

Depends on which half. This seems like it could just as easily be for the worse.

As someone with frequent carpal tunnel, if you’re missing Annihilator, just put Raging Blow on a second keybind and alternate as you’re enticed to hit something else closer to one keybind or the other. Annihilator builds’ APM was identical to Raging Blow builds’. The only change between them is the buttonflow, and if the back-and-forth was helpful to you then, just remake that flow yourself now.

Stacked atop Bonegrinder and Warbreaker (if one still dares use it), it does feel a fair bit like a small nuclear explosion at this point.

  • Was also the highlight of NF Spiteful weeks with Seismic Reverberation lego and maxed Bonegrinder conduit in ShL M+. Doubling an already +250% damage WW, multiplicatively time 1.3x via WB and 1.2x via Avatar that then hits again for 80% damage. With 40% bonus crit chance if an add pull / Spiteful could be made to time out —or if you could trick a Shadowmeld— just right. …Boom.