So… don’t buff AM Fury by ~5%, again allowing people to competitively play AM?
Keep in mind, they can always aura-tune after internal (build-vs-build) balance. Once they allow for a greater portion of builds to compete, it’s the easiest thing for them to just tune the whole damn spec up or down slightly.
Heck, I would have thought that shift was one of your goals:
They’re not gutting the class “just because OF is strong”. It should be merely competitive, not obligatory, yes, but you’re strawmanning the rationale here.
They haven’t given a rationale that I’ve seen.
We don’t have both. You literally cannot have both. Which was arguably a change for the worse.
If you read the next line of my post I addressed that already. It was also quoted and talked about by other people in this thread.
Why would we want it to be triggered from another ability? Alternatively, if you really mean that, see Blademaster’s Torment.
Because if I’m cleaving, I’m cleaving. So just make it proc from cleave. Also make it affect cleave. It would reduce button clutter and streamline gameplay. Blademaster’s torment would be fine too if it wasn’t nerfed into its current state.
How would that remotely worse? We add Rend just to passively reduce Rend duration via passive “Skullsplitter” so that our tooltips say one thing but the result is another?
You know that tooltips update when you pick talents that affect them right? That’s been a thing for a long time.
Slam is a dps increase over WW in ST for Fury, over an unprocced Revenge for Prot, and it the only filler Arms has until at Execute %HP.
Meanwhile, on Arms or Fury, just… don’t put them on your bar?
For my part, though, I’d rather just see Mortal Strike and Cleave hit 20% harder with a two-hander, be tuned around that, make even clearer which Fury abilities hit with both weapons, and then drop the handedness/-wield requirements from all but Shield Slam and Shield Block (since that connection to their slots are pretty obviously unavoidable).
I’m well aware that it’s a dps increase in certain situations, but again it’s an extra button that is just taking up space for very little reason. It’s an extremely small dps increase to use it even when it’s optimal and it could easily be removed and have the damage added elsewhere.
It’s easy enough to add the damage onto cleave, or adjust cooldowns/cooldown reduction slightly and suddently slam has no reason to exist.
They already did buff it. If you look back at Shadowlands, for instance, the 25% magic mitigation, which is already huge, didn’t persist through the first reflect.
I’m referring to buffing the reflect part. Either make it reflect more than 1 spell or make it reflect all spells for a short duration, much like what other classes have.
Into what?
They can make meat cleaver a passive cleave for single target abilities or give a chance for single target abilities to add charges. They could also make sweeping strikes a proc off of cleave.
You’ve got to be kidding…
It doesn’t hit like the hardest because otherwise your other CDs would be reduced to, at best, Deep Wound maintenance (especially without EP, unless you’re comparing Execute even against that), and Sudden Death’s proc rate and Juggernaut’s scaling would have to be (at least) proportionately trimmed as Execute’s damage rises.
I would be completely fine reducing the proc rate of SD and buffing the damage of execute instead. It makes more sense that way anyhow.
So… don’t buff AM Fury by ~5%, again allowing people to competitively play AM?
Keep in mind, they can always aura-tune after internal (build-vs-build) balance. Once they allow for a greater portion of builds to compete, it’s the easiest thing for them to just tune the whole damn spec up or down slightly.
Heck, I would have thought that shift was one of your goals:
That was referring to the slayer nerfs, but yes, I agree that the baseline buffs to RB and BT are good changes. They are also just a mere bandaid and nowhere near enough to fix everything wrong with the class.
Spell reflect is already one of the most broken abilities in the game.
The 5 seconds of 20% magic DR on only a 25 second cooldown already makes this an insanely strong defensive.
But that’s not all Spell Reflect does, it also
Acts as a pseudo Interrupt
Allows Warrior’s to ignore certain mechanics
Allows Warrior’s to fully negate incoming damage
Allows Warrior’s to deal off GCD damage
Remember that Spell Reflect cost a single talent point and is at the top of our class tree. The benefits gained for the cost of it is outrageous.
A lot of boss abilities had to be patched to no longer interact with Spell Reflect so that Warrior’s wouldn’t trivialize encounters.
Here’s a couple extra fun facts about Spell reflect while I’m at it.
You can Spell reflect certain “Volley” abilities for your entire party depending on your positioning. https://i.imgur.com/5exLhNJ.png
It’s the only ability in the game able to inflict over 8 million damage with a single cast in current content.
Some debuffs that inflict aoe damage around the target once the debuff expires can be reflected back to the caster even though the debuff expiring will still harm players within range. The best part is the range radius will sometimes not be displayed, it’s great to mess around with friends and guildies.
All in all, Spell Reflect is way too good an ability however it requires a decent bit of game knowledge to properly utilize at it’s full value.
Luckily for us some very generous players have already compiled the necessary information to maximize your usage of Spell Reflect.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQQCkBEkOadsvO4sTphB1RwzC6Z_3kq00IFaBrCk5Eagz2Jeoox7D7Rk3XwXMINbh4lUg9Vr-3RgoB2/pubhtml#
In case it wasn’t clear, I was talking about PvP when I said that. I’m also totally ok with leaving it as-is and having extra talent points buff it, or changing the rebound pvp talent to reflect all spells for a duration.
I agree that a 20% magic DR on a 25 second cooldown is strong in PvE, but the reflect component is what’s more powerful in PvP due to being used to avoid CC or massive incoming burst while being kited. However, it was a lot more powerful when the game didn’t have so many instant cast spells constantly firing off from various classes, and especially when classes didn’t have a bunch of random procs firing off on their own that eat it. The DR component is basically a bandaid to fix the fact that the main and original property of the spell has become very dated as the game has aged.
Please no. I like when my cooldowns line up with my trinket and everything doesn’t get desynced.
Oh, some surrounding points were addressing PVE and others PVP but it wasn’t exactly clear with your SR paragraph.
I can only really talk about the PVE side of things for this but for the health of the class tacking on more effects in the class tree would be too much, a PvP talent seems like a better fix out of the two to me although I’m no expert on the PVP talent tax.
Another solution might be a rework on how Spell Reflect functions. Maybe it should be reworked to reflect all spells until it passes a certain damage threshold similar to how AMZ reduces damage until X amount has been absorbed.
This threshold could be based on the players Hit points, let’s say 10% of a Warrior’s total hit points.
Using simplified numbers a warrior who has 500 hit points would have a SR with a damage threshold of 50.
A Boomkin, Frostmage and Destrolock are targeting the Warrior. Boomkin instant casts Moonfire for 10 damage, Mage casts Frostbolt for 30 and finally the Lock casts Chaos Bolt for 100 damage.
All 3 spells would be reflected because the threshold was only passed once the CB hit.
Inversely if the CB hit first the other 2 spells wouldn’t be reflected since the CB alone met the threshold.
This would in theory fix the issues you mentioned with too many weak spells proccing SR.
This also wouldn’t really impact PVE as most targeted spells deal more than just 10% of a Warrior’s HP
Good point. OP, quickly toss this into the Warlock forum and hope no one deletes it.
Arms has never been the same since the Defensive Stance nerf in arena. All they had to do was limit your damage further while in D Stance and it would have been fine, but no they had to just gut it which sucks because one of our primary roles is to play goal keeper in arena.
I’ll never understand that idiotic change. But they let DH have Blur on a 50 second CD, np. Complete imbeciles.
Nah, but I think we should have the ONLY MS in arena. Or at the very least, the absolute best MS effect.
Yes.
They need to make our Spear actually hold all classes in it.
I don’t know if this is PvE or PvP related, but Fury has no business being even close to Arms in PvP. I can’t stand ‘Terminator’ specs that are just W pressing like a moron (read: DH) and just constantly being able to damage people.
I’d settle for the attack sounds being fixed on some races for warrior…
Oh, some surrounding points were addressing PVE and others PVP but it wasn’t exactly clear with your SR paragraph.
Yeah my bad, I went back and added an edit to clear that up after you mentioned it.
I can only really talk about the PVE side of things for this but for the health of the class tacking on more effects in the class tree would be too much, a PvP talent seems like a better fix out of the two to me although I’m no expert on the PVP talent tax.
Another solution might be a rework on how Spell Reflect functions. Maybe it should be reworked to reflect all spells until it passes a certain damage threshold similar to how AMZ reduces damage until X amount has been absorbed.
This threshold could be based on the players Hit points, let’s say 10% of a Warrior’s total hit points.
Using simplified numbers a warrior who has 500 hit points would have a SR with a damage threshold of 50.A Boomkin, Frostmage and Destrolock are targeting the Warrior. Boomkin instant casts Moonfire for 10 damage, Mage casts Frostbolt for 30 and finally the Lock casts Chaos Bolt for 100 damage.
All 3 spells would be reflected because the threshold was only passed once the CB hit.
Inversely if the CB hit first the other 2 spells wouldn’t be reflected since the CB alone met the threshold.
This would in theory fix the issues you mentioned with too many weak spells proccing SR.
This also wouldn’t really impact PVE as most targeted spells deal more than just 10% of a Warrior’s HP
I really like your idea of making it work similar to AMS, that would solve a lot of problems. They’d likely have to make the CD a little longer but it would be a more worthwhile defensive in pvp like that for sure.
Then we’ll have lost our CD and thereby the burst it offers by compressing that throughput into 50% uptime atop increasing its waste (as it cannot affect Thunderous Roar, Warbreaker, or Thunder Clap even if you cause it to affect Cleave itself).
I’m aware, but asking to baseline Skullsplitter into Rend would effectively look, to a tooltip, like this:
Rend
20 Rage
Wounds the target, causing (124.581% of Attack power) Physical damage instantly and an additional (190.465% of Attack power) Bleed damage over 15 sec.Additionally applies Skullsplitter, causing your Rend and Deep Wounds on the target to bleed out 100% faster for 10 sec.
…which would mean you apply 15 sec duration so that it’s effectively a 7.5-second duration (double-speed for 10s, which is more than the reduced duration and therefore effectively the whole thing)…
Why would you not instead simply make Rend simply affect Deep Wounds, at that point?
Or better yet, just leave them separate since the unique use case of Rend above and beyond Deep Wounds is to get bonus damage over Slam out of few but multiple targets and that becomes all the less worthwhile or even possible to do if you halve its duration or short its own damage in order to get that damage out of hastened Deep Wound ticks.
From all but Arms, perhaps. Fair enough. Not everyone will like using Revenge for classic-style purposes in ST (i.e., only when it’s procced).
That said, Cleave ain’t likely the place to move that wholly-filler damage, and I imagine the last thing we’d want is for Mortal Strike or Raging Blow to be so frequent as to have absolutely no use for Slam regardless of its tuning.
The best consolidation, honestly, is to just allow players to consolidate crap for themselves, such as by just slotting Slam → Heroic Throw as a fall-back option for each ST skill, used only if the first option would not be available even by end of GCD refresh.
What other caster has damage reflection, let alone with 20% uptime that costs them no damage???
It’s already frequently the strongest, cheesiest defensive (in terms of frequency * value of use) in the game. And that’s before getting into what a high portion of our overall damage in can be in certain fights… despite being a defensive.
Then we’ll have lost our CD and thereby the burst it offers by compressing that throughput into 50% uptime atop increasing its waste (as it cannot affect Thunderous Roar, Warbreaker, or Thunder Clap even if you cause it to affect Cleave itself).
I’m not sure I follow. Why would you have 50% uptime if it’s a proc from cleave? And what’s stopping them from making it affect all abilities if it now also affected cleave? I’m very tired so I may just be not understanding what you’re getting at here.
I was thinking more that rend would just look normal, and if talented into skullsplitter one of your other abilities (overpower?) would have the added tooltip text of the current version.
I think giving WW and revenge extra damage against their primary target would be totally fine as a solution, same with cleave.
Warlocks have a reflect pvp talent, I believe shamans used to as well. Mages did too but it was removed a long time ago. I’m not sure on all of them, but warlock has a reflect that reflects everything for 3 seconds as a pvp talent. And to be clear again, me saying it needs a buff is based on pvp and not pve.
We currently have 50% uptime, which, as a balance point, is not a bad thing.
Assume balance for a moment. I.e., you only get so much of any good thing.
Do you want control of when you use that output —by which you could minimize anti-synergies— or no? Do you want that to be an available form of skill expression, or do you want that gameplay removed?
What you’re asking for is the latter, for both.
It’s not fine to put that on Cleave so long as Collateral Damage and Merciless Bonegrinder exist.
You implied a baseline change. If you want something reminiscent of a PvP talent, then ask for the advantage strictly and explicitly as a PvP talent.
Warlock nethershield reflect all spells for a short while, the pvp talent for spell reflect should work just like that
I don’t really care about much about skill expression, or preserving the 50% uptime we currently have, when so many other classes and specs an just roll their face on the keyboard and auto cleave everything. I care more about smooth gameplay and reducing unnecessary complication.
It’s not fine to put that on Cleave so long as Collateral Damage and Merciless Bonegrinder exist.
That’s fair, but in my opinion the entire class, arms, and fury trees need reworked so that would ideally be addressed in such a rework.
I care all the more about it for that reason. If specs are increasingly becoming facerolls, I’d rather keep what opportunities we have for it not to be that.
I wouldn’t be opposed to a more passive option (mutually exclusive with active Sweeping Strikes) for those who hugely prefer that but leave those who like min-maxing a bit more their means of doing so.
For the same reason as the above, I don’t want to see yet more skill expression removed just to make room for a purposeful reduction in skill expression.
Agree to disagree then, I just don’t think this skill expression is all that meaningful. I’m sure to some people it is, I’ve just found that as I’ve gotten older I stopped caring about things like that. I also don’t really think mythic raids should exist so I’m sure we’d find plenty to disagree on.
For what it’s worth though, I do think having the option between a passive or on use version of sweeping strikes would be a great compromise.
Then stop worrying about optimization if you have no interest in optimization? Why insist on an outcome that necessarily takes away options from others and reduces optionality across the game just to remove a skill gap you can’t be bothered with anyways?
I haven’t had any interest in playing them since I started working above full time, but my not caring to do them is not sufficient warrant to want —let alone ask that they be— removed.
Then we can probably throw that in easily enough as either…
I’m not worried about optimization, you are the one that brought it up. I’m worried about how the spec plays - those are two different subjects. As I said, I don’t think that in this case skill expression is terribly important, and people wanting to keep things the way they are so they can optimize their rotations further instead of simplifying things and smoothing out gameplay seems silly to me. Which is why I said agree to disagree, because clearly we never will agree on this.
Skill expression or lackthereof when it comes to ‘reworking’ a MMO Spec/Class is a valid concern and should not be dismissed for the most part as it is a vital experience of your interaction with the game itself.
If a change is for positive Quality of Life it’s for the better (button bloat removal *only if it’s a valid reason such as multiple no CD spenders vying for the exact same role as resource dump, eg, heroic strike vs slam), if it ends up just removing skill expressions and making them passive it’s for the worse.
To be blunt, specs that passively cleave through just their rotation without any additional input are badly designed in my opinion since there’s no skill expression at all in changing from focusing on a single target to focusing on multiple targets. Cooldown attacks having a cleave drop off is fine since it stops needing to make a second version of it that’s an AoE that shares it’s cooldown.
Arms having distinct options in it’s skill expression to focus on single target, AoE or two target damage is a net positive for it’s design overall regarding player interaction.
Having gameplay change and alter between single targets to multiple also helps keep things fresh as you go from encounter to encounter.
Sweeping Strikes is fantastic as a short term cooldown as it enables you to choose exactly when you want to be hitting secondary targets for the moments where killing a secondary target or reducing them to a lower health % earlier than intended causes negative results for your group. Sweeping strikes also drives a fantastic talent we have called Collateral Damage, which is a solid form of skill expression where you’re able to set-up and either burst on the current pack or bank a cleave for the following pack if it’s built up at the tail end of the previous pack.
Calling for the removal of said skill expression is just awful for gameplay overall and interaction with the spec which will just lead to further discontent with the combat gameplay itself which is 99% of the game’s way of you interacting with it.