How to fix TBC Arena Participation

[Babypuke-whitemane]

@Alphonce-kelthuzad

The ladder that’s dying.

What are you talking about? TBC appears to be growing steadily and personally on a large PvP server arena participation seems to be increasing quite a bit here, partly due to access to rep gear probably but also just the fact that a lot of people started late or level behind the curve.

It’s pretty much doing exactly what I predicted, large starting pop, big drop off after the first month as is standard in MMOs, then (due to the fact that TBC’s content rollout has SO much good stuff in it, and the core gameplay is SO good) the population will continue to climb until it peaks at the end of TBC.

The real crime here is boosting, bots, and other things generally that undercut the progression experience. Those combined with years of horrible game design on retail have attracted and groomed players to become an entirely different audience of immediate gratification players… while sucking the value out of the journey.

It’s going to take a little time to restore WoW’s reputation, it’s also going to require that Blizzard remove unhealthy things like the boost that foster those bad expectations, and also NOT act on the feedback you’re giving. Unless they just intend to make this into retail and end up with the same or similar problems.

P.S. if you’re complaining about the ladder being dead because not that many people were 2K+ for you to matchmake into on WEEK 1 then that’s part of the problem, you don’t understand player behavior, the casuals that you seem to be trying to defend here aren’t playing the game like you. They’re gearing up on their own time and the ladder will steadily grow as it originally did.

At 2150 MMR today we queued against a ton of different team diversity over a couple of hours.

[Hydrose-bigglesworth]

Big true, but there’s a wide range of issues when trying to compare retail to tbc arena. That would def be on the list though.

[Alphonce-kelthuzad]

I saw this on the arena forums and it touched my heart.

@Revolol-azuremyst

The biggest pushback to this that I’ve seen is “What will the reward be then?” Realistically when has gear EVER been "THE NUMBER ONE PvP reward”? Some very old systems valued gear as a reward, but they were removed for the same reasons. The disparity in gear made pushing unfun. We have titles, rating achievements, mounts, etc. that are the reward for doing arena. Arena in the past has primarily been about these rewards and about HAVING FUN PLAYING PVP

When people grind bgs or arena, most do it because it’s fun to play pvp. Because it’s fun to gain new heights, earn titles, and possibly if you’re good enough, a limited edition gladiator mount. Most people don’t do pvp just for the gear.

There is currently no reason to time gate older gear. Once a season has ended, that gear should be available for honor. Mindless time gating is hurting both classic and retail arena. Time gating just does not work when it comes to player versus player interactions. It might work for PvE, but this isn’t pve.

PvE bosses don’t get stronger as the current tier progresses. However, players do. The problem is, new players get hurt the most, alts get hurt as well. The overall experience becomes miserable for those who miss a week, or came late from last season. It just kills motivation and the drive to be an active participant.

A side note. Revo is a multi rank one gladiator player. This is someone who knows how the game is played, and how it ought to be played. This is someone who has spent a great deal of time, dedication and energy getting to where he is. There are few as good as him.

When i brought up my past 2600 achievement, i look like a 1300 rated player compared to this man. I’m practically a rookie who has never even stepped foot into arena. This guy knows what he’s talking about. He lives eats and breathes competitive pvp. Which from at least my view point, is very good – if we listen to him.

[Robinton-fairbanks]

Maybe I missed this in the thread somewhere, but to add to this i’d think removing arena teams (similar to retail) would help with queue times. Current arena teams simply limit who you can play with. You know? Maybe you want to queue now, but your teammates are not on to play. If you leave to play with someone else you might screw yourself over on good amount of arena points. Not only that if you spam queue with another partner on the same team you might knock them out of the range for points for the week.

Maybe I’m looking at this wrong way, but I just think removing teams will increase participation across all brackets.

[Cilva-benediction]

just add solo q finding partners is the hardest part of arena.

[Alphonce-kelthuzad]

@Robinton-fairbanks

Maybe I missed this in the thread somewhere

I don’t believe i brought it up in this specific thread, but i did comment in another thread about my opinion on the matters.

@Alphonce-kelthuzad

Personally, i agree with the removal of teams and allowing people to play with others without repercussion. All teams do, in my opinion, is limit whether or not others play with new protentional team mates or even friends.

Having limiters, like being within 150 points of the team rating, or 30% of games played is a huge detriment to a healthy ladder. To my current knowledge, no one actually cares about team names, or how many games people play on a team. It’s just about how to get your weekly cap in, in a timely manner.

If they allowed cross server arena play, we would likely see an increase in active participation. Right now, it seems pretty dead.

To me, there are several obvious reasons as why the ladder seems, or is straight up is dead. No way to catch up if you’re late, or an alt. Teams restricting or making it harder for people to join / leave and getting enough games played / with in rating to get points by Tuesday reset. No cross server playing. S1 gear being near unobtainable for anyone who doesn’t already have it. The list goes on.

People may say they don’t want changes, or this isn’t the game they pay for… Those same players would apparently rather see the arena scene die completely than for obvious solutions to be made. To me, this does not make any sense. Nor has anyone provided an actual thought out response other than “hey man, this is classic, and classic should remain classic because that’s how classic was, and in no way, for better or for worse, should classic be changed because of no valid or rationally thought out reason.”

The PvP scene is vastly different than the pve scene. Sometimes, it may require more attention, but if the problems are solved, can go without any attention at all. Right now, there are obvious, overbearing, quite frankly ridiculous problems going unnoticed, unsolved or just outright ignored that will, without any doubt in my mind, cause the scene to die before wrath comes out.

Anyone who gives this more thought than 30 seconds of time, and perhaps more than one post on the forums would likely see there is many problems at hand causing severe disparities that need to be addressed. This may be a “classic”, but that doesn’t mean it deserves to die “just because that’s how it originally was.”

It saddens to me to -know- that people would rather let the arena scene die, “just because that’s how it originally was”, than to address legitimate issues and make the ladder healthy again. I guess, “it do be like that sometimes”, though. I have very little hope that this will be addressed, let alone even mentioned by any one who has power to change anything for good, or for worse.

Knowing how little activision cares, and lack of care for literal years when it comes to the pvp scene, my hopes aren’t high, but i think persistence is key.

[Gaige-hyjal]

Put rating starts to 1500, remove rating requirement on arena vendor, and increase honor gain in BGS by 200%

[Riger-arugal]

@Alphonce-kelthuzad

Duel spec is definitely a barrier to entry as well.

I’d prefer to see something like an Arena spec. Rather than a toggle you can choose you select a spec and then a pvp variant and your loadout automatically changes when you enter an arena. That way you don’t get sweaty PVErs abusing it in raids.

But respeccing is a barrier to entry for Arena I agree.

[Daykiller-incendius]

The abusive profession items and everyone ONLY running BiS race/class combos ruins it for anyone not a hardcore PvPer. I was actually super excited to play arena in TBC, it was the highlight of my WoW career, eventually culminating me getting glad in S4. Unfortunately the amount of sweaties playing in arena atm has completely turned me off from trying to rise in rating.

[Drstolk-grobbulus]

@Daykiller-incendius

amount of sweaties playing in arena atm has completely turned me off from trying to rise in rating.

The reason why arenas are so sweaty is because of the design. They are using a highly competitive rating system and the rewards requires you to be the best of the best (top 1-3% for shoulders) at least top 10% but probably more like top 5-8% for weapons. On top of this, higher rated players get about double the points as everyone else around that 50% bottleneck.

[Alphonce-kelthuzad]

@Daykiller-incendius

Unfortunately the amount of sweaties playing in arena atm has completely turned me off from trying to rise in rating.

With all due respect,

@Daykiller-incendius

eventually culminating me getting glad in S4.

Would put you in the same category you don’t like about the community. Gladiator is top 0.5%. You don’t get there by not being “a sweaty”. I don’t think that being someone who takes the game seriously is a bad thing.

I loved this game a lot. It’s very fun to be a good player. Understandably, professions do kind of ruin a little bit of the edge, and i agree they should not be allowed in arena, but you can still win games without them.

I don’t use skull of impending doom. Yes, i lose more games against mage rogue as rdruid/warrior than i should, if i had the skull of impending doom… I just don’t agree a level 40ish item should be usuable in arena.

I digress. The systems around arena definitely don’t reward newer players. Season 1 arena gear costing arena points, the same currency it takes to buy season 2 arena gear. Just doesn’t add up. Would be nice to see more incentives to the lower end of arena so that it’s easier to try, find out if you like it, and if you do, climb the ranks without having to be a seasoned veteran or “super sweaty” just to play.

[Drstolk-grobbulus]

@Alphonce-kelthuzad

The systems around arena definitely don’t reward newer players. Season 1 arena gear costing arena points, the same currency it takes to buy season 2 arena gear.

It’s really terrible design. New players just get curb stomped and get no reward for playing.

Even decent players are not really being rewarded. Once season 2 started my 3s team won our first 8 games before we saw a loss. We ended up going 15 and 4 the first week. We got a whopping 530 points. Only 3 more weeks to get a chest or helm piece…

Most people will look at this and just say “yeah, Ef that!”

[Alphonce-kelthuzad]

@Drstolk-grobbulus

It’s really terrible design. New players just get curb stomped and get no reward for playing.

The reward is very low. It takes weeks for newer and lower rated players alike to get even one piece. There is no catchup system in place. The problem will only get worse as the game goes on without anything being addressed. Truly depressing.

[Thescumlord-heartseeker]

Having to suck it up for a whole season just to have good time in the next is not something that attracts casual players or retains them in the slightest

[Grænelda-faerlina]

double honor gains please

[Donkles-bloodsail-buccaneers]

It’s good that this is not the case, then.

There’s simply not enough of a stats disparity between current available S2 gear and the blue set/current season offpieces to force you to “suck it up” for a whole season. If you want to win, the 2-3 pieces of S2 gear people could have by now (and that’s honestly a stretch, tbh- you don’t get that many points per week) are not going to stop you.

This isn’t retail. Gear helps but isn’t unsurmountable.

IDK, the S1 gear at 50% off seems like a good buy for some slots, shoulders and weapon in particular. I don’t feel like when I lose in arena, it’s due to gear (and I started this season with the blue set and not all the S2 offpieces, even). I got my S1 helm and shoulders for the 2-set, and I’ll be getting the S2 gloves/pants/chest over the rest of the season.

[Kammirri-azuresong]

Have you considered that with your new to arena friends that the barrier to entry may be that they aren’t that good and not the 2 pieces of gear they can’t obtain due to rating requirements?
I’m just saying you could give your friends a full 5/5 set and all the offset pieces and they are still going to be low rating because their barrier is their skill level.

[Tiek-bloodsail-buccaneers]

im really not sure you can fix arena participation without being silly about it. i just think not that many people are interested. everyone i personally know that does arena, slogs through each week just to fill that one crappy slot and then they never go back.

[Bladeshade-alleria]

Players that are better than the average rewarded so they can be better than the players they were all ready better than.

[Thescumlord-heartseeker]

How dense can you possibly be to think this post has anything to do with S1 vs S2. I’m talking about new players being discouraged by a high barrier to entry. You don’t just magically get PvP gear in the mail when you make an arena team. It will take the better part of a season to gear up with blues and season 1 and you will still be way behind the curve. It’s especially bad if you aren’t a preist, mage, druid, or rogue.