There nothing to fix.
This is the way that it is
There is no imaginary dev team ready to rewrite a 15 year old game and develop a completely new matchmaking system.
If you don’t like classic, don’t play classic.
Or put on some big boy pants and make some friends. Join a premade. And atop whining like a toddler in Walmart.
“They” who?
I never supported cross realm bgs.
Do you run into a lot of cross realm fans?
Right, because being able to beat half a team 10x an hour with every possible advantage is a far greater accomplishment than being able to win a single fair and more engaging match once every 30 minutes.
I addressed this in my OP. Suffice to say that it would not, so long as there were a minimum queue period sufficient enough to scramble the queue order such as to make 123 queue premades an impossibility.
You seem to purposely misunderstand my intent.
I want fairer matchmaking that consistently produces higher quality gameplay in battlegrounds.
Feel free to explain how this implies I seek access to welfare gear, or how my desire to better preserve Vanilla’s gameplay in WoW Classic suggests that I somehow don’t belong.
The people who actually want welfare epics are the same people advocating for unrestricted matchmaking procedures which consistently pit premades against pugs.
They want to be able to get a full match worth of bonus honor and reputation for beating half an enemy team, whilst being carried by teammates they hand selected instead of playing an inherently fairer game where neither team had an inherent advantage prior to the gate opening, and where their own personal contribution to the match counts for more as a means to determine the outcome.
“just join a premade, and you can stomp pugs too!”
Yeah? No thanks, actually. That would only serve to fill me with a sense of unavoidable guilt, for the knowledge that my success had the effect of frustrating the players on the other team, due to the sense in which it forced an unfair situation upon them for my benefit.
I would prefer a fair match, regardless of who I choose to queue with. When the enemy team doesn’t put up enough of a fight to challenge me, I don’t have as much fun playing the game; because I feel empathetic toward them.
Premades facing pugs results in degenerative gameplay which is dis-interesting to all parties involved. It isn’t an appropriate challenge for the players who queued as a group, and it isn’t fair to the players who didn’t; regardless of their prospective quality as an individual player.
In the case of premades and pugs, the odds are inherently stacked, either for or against you, depending upon which side you stand.
The changes I have proposed to the queue system adequately address this degeneration and seek to repair it in an effort to better preserve Vanilla’s gameplay conventions; despite the efforts of a small but highly visible faction within the playerbase who place their own desire for reward above the health and integrity of the game and its systems.
Read my OP. I’m not suggesting they separate the queues. It’s still 1 queue, it’s just matchmaking fairer teams, which results in more engaging gameplay.
#nochanges is simply a mask you’re hiding behind to defend the ability to acquire “welfare gear,” as you call it, by utilizing premade groups to more easily farm honor.
Players in premades are playing an inherently easier game.
WoW Classic is not Vanilla for a wide variety of reasons. The largest is actually the fault of the playerbase; in that they simply know far more about the game in 2020 than they did in 2005.
Ranking has been reduced to a scientific formula, resulting in degenerative behavior that hurts the overall quality of gameplay in PvP Battlegrounds.
It’s in the spirit of preservation to suggest implementing some semblance of guard rail to prevent player mentality from damaging the integrity of the Vanilla-like gameplay that we’re trying our best to preserve.
As far as I’m concerned, the state of Battlegrounds in Classic is evidence enough that Retail players have hijacked the project.
They’re trying to suggest that the meta which has developed in battlegrounds is authentic in reference to vanilla, which is absolutely not true.
How about we make Classic a game for the players who asked for it, and not for the bandwagon fans.
Very much this. No one is arguing that premades weren’t around in Vanilla, but just how common they were was dependant on your server. This ranking exclusively through premades is a meta that came from having cross realm battlegrounds in a system designed around server only queues.
Personally, I confess I liked this one. :3
I figure it strikes accurately at the heart of the issue.
If a premade was running rampant on your server you could /4 tell everyone “hey, don’t pug X battleground until we’ve given these guys what’s coming to them.”
You could get conscript some well geared and reputably skilled players together to break the premade’s hold on the battleground so that everyone could casually play again.
You can’t do that in this matchmaking system. Premades are simply running rampant, and because of the meta, they’re not even willing to face each other in an honest contest because they’re trying to preserve consumables and world buffs on both sides.
It’s like two tennis players playing false opponents on separate courts when they’re supposed to be playing each other. The changes I propose to the queue system forces those tennis players onto the same court, which restores authenticity to the contest they’re supposedly having.
It has the same effect as people exploiting the LFG system to stack players into instances of Ashran, which completely broke Ashran’s integrity.
It’s degenerative, it hurts the integrity of pvp progression and our collective understanding of Vanilla’s gameplay as a whole; and something should absolutely be done about it. There’s no viable excuse to allow it to continue.
it is.
the pvp system is the same
if you dont like it, cool, its old and crappy, but you dont have to play it.
take your meds. go back to retail. you’ll be happier and we wont have to listen to you whine all day one multiple different alts.
You really are a condescending troll.
appreciate your feedback on trolling mr level 10 dude 
Wow… you really are a jerk to people on here.
Is it though? : /
What is the point of having to wait less time if the match you’re waiting to enter isn’t a legitimate contest? Short queue times only benefit players queueing in premades, because they can farm more reputation and honor in a shorter period of time.
Waiting less time for a 0 honor game doesn’t help the pug.
If you’re correct about the ratio of premade teams, the system I proposed is likely to lengthen queue times for players who queue solo and shorten or leave unaffected the queue times of players queuing in with 7 or more members.
If Hph is your primary concern, queuing as a premade team will likely increase your Hph as a matter of course, as a result of faster queues, while also increasing the likelihood that the team you face will feature an appropriate composition and be better coordinated.
The only difference between the two systems is that the quality of gameplay is increased as a result of better matchmaking. Games will be more fair.
Absolutely fantastic and well written my good sir. Agree 100%.
Alliance premade vs PUB Horde = fair.
Alliance pub vs Horde PUB = UNFAIR x1000123123123
Alliance pub vs Horde premade= hehe xD
The only reason why this might have a grain of truth to it is because the best alliance players aren’t queuing up to play outside of their small social circle, where as many horde players queue for battlegrounds without having first made a group.
Horde pugs get help from some of our most skilled/geared players, and Alliance infrequently experience that.
It’s one of the reasons why your faction, as a whole, is struggling so much in AV.
The top rankers on the Alliance got exalted within the first week and never stepped foot in AV again because farming pugs in AB/WSG became more efficient; especially after the ability to consistently premake AV teams was broken.
If there aren’t enough people to put together a full premade group, then there aren’t enough people to put together a full pug.
Blizzard will not make any real improvements or fixes to the game since they can easily hide behind the #NoChanges mob who will defend inaction. It’s cheaper this way as well, and they never wanted to devote that much development time to Classic.
Battlegrounds are cross-realm. Not sure what you’re after with this one.
That’s one argument. The other side of that is that Blizzard never wanted to release Classic at all, and only did so to prevent people from pirating the game – which is something that many people were doing at the time, and hurt activision’s revenue.
Purposely leaving Battleground matchmaking systems broken serves to cheapen the product we received, and further justifies the development trajectory the game took post-patch 2.0 as a PvE centric game.
The experience that I personally had during vanilla was that of a PvP centered endgame that didn’t require building full groups prior to joining the battleground queue. Classic has failed to reproduce that experience for me, which is why it feels inauthentic in my opinion.
Leaving well alone the fact that premades don’t genuinely compete against one another when they are matchmade into the same instance, it feels like Horde premades more frequently get Alliance pugs, Alliance premades more frequently get Horde pugs, almost as if the matchmaking system is purposely pitting premades against pugs to ruin the PvP aspects of the endgame, which proposes to force players into the PvE side of level 60 content which – at the end of the day – simply received less traffic when Vanilla was live.
From the content release schedule to the systems design, most aspects of WoW Classic point us, inevitably, in that direction.
Blizzard has developed a self-fulfilling prophecy in terms of what vision they have/had for their game, despite what it represented to many of its players. It just feels like there’s some semblance of insincerity inherent in the game systems as a whole, and that’s a little frustrating as a long-time player of the game.
Many people hadn’t even hit level 60 by the time battlegrounds were initially released – or had only recently done so – and they weren’t initially cross server.
In classic, there wasn’t any benefit or point to killing enemy players prior to the release of phase 2 and the late entry of those systems had far reaching ramifications for some servers because the playerbase went overboard when ranks were finally implemented.
After waiting months, we finally got a wonky version of AV that felt under-tuned, there was rampant exploitation of the cross-realm matchmaking/queue systems which made the release feel fake as hell; and now AV has a 100% horde win-rate because pug stomping is simply far more lucrative than playing a legitimate game for Alliance players seeking to make rank.
Raid quality PvE gear seems far more common-place than I remember it being at any point when vanilla was live; It’s just a very different endgame experience due to a wide variety of factors, many of which feel inadvertently engineered by the developers as a means to de-naturalize our understanding of the game.
The release schedule was a huge part of that, but only because of the player knowledge gap, and the effect that the release schedule ultimately had as a result.
you are incorrect
most people doing BGs are not trying to have fun and are only trying to rank
a large percentage of these people have fun anyway because it is impossible for them to have fun in any video game in the world without either flexing, trash-talking, or working their way up to a position from which they can flex or trash-talk
these people don’t necessarily want to play video games
they just want to be at or near the top of a totem pole so they can laugh at people lower than them or feel good about being higher than them or being admired by people
90% of the people who wanted to have fun, excluding the prideful variety of fun described above, either unsubbed or stopped PvPing months ago, largely due to them getting stomped by premades over and over again without desiring to premade themselves
said people would not have fun by premading, for very long anyway, even with a 100% win rate, which is something that most genuine(as opposed to ingenuine) premade advocates cannot and will not ever understand because they are incapable of imagining what its like to be a casual PvPer who doesn’t care about being #1
I mean, as a PvP advocate?
It’s been difficult to remain a fan – but I remember the original product.
This is not it.
The playerbase isn’t blameless? But the developers could definitely do more as a means of curbing the adverse effect the knowledge gap is having on the game’s integrity – particularly, in the case of pug-stomping.
The amount of benefit a small tweak here could produce cannot be understated; and the game would remain entirely unchanged – it would restore authenticity in a place where authenticity seems to be lacking.
This is not a constructive argument.
Exactly; “nochanges” advocates are trying to defend those changes and their consequences, which is exactly what I’m trying to explain.
At this point, we’re living in a post-changes world. This is about #nochanges. This is about changing it back.
The people responding to me with, “No, becuase #nochanges” are saying; “nochanges to WoW Classic because the current meta benefits me.” And what I’m trying to say is “nochanges to vanilla gameplay; the current meta isn’t accurate.”