But from Genn’s point of view it wasn’t just Varian. The Cataclysm was also a “world ending apocalypse” and Genn was still attacked by the Horde during this apocalypse. Later on the Legion is attacking and Genn believes the Horde intentionally betrayed the Alliance at the broken shore. To Genn, the Horde is a valid threat, even during world ending events. It’s like saying he didn’t attack Sylvanas out of hatred for what she did to his kingdom and his son because he didn’t mention them on the airship.
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Which is until recently one of the most absurd plot points for a long time. It was their plan as far as I can tell.
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No attempt at communication despite both factions present in Dalaran.
No obvious logic from someone that “hey this was clearly a death trap, they probably were dying just as badly as us”.
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I think the Horde as a whole needs to be exterminated.
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Since when the lack of communication is a reason to start a war by trying to kill the other faction leader? Its even worst when you’re own spy failure are the reason for it…
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Firstly, on the point of the Forsaken diplomats. it’s since been confirmed (in that book with Mathias shaw and Finn) that the alliance is aware that the forsaken immediately betrayed the lordaeronians and Garithos after they retook Lordaeron. The alliance has nothing to apologize for, that’s on the forsaken for betraying the humans and it’s up to them to make amends.
I’m starting to think a number of horde posters just don’t have any real concept of how to make redemption or atonement work.
You don’t get redemption by having the other side also be bad. That just makes you both bad. If you want redemption then you have to atone for it. You have to hurt and work for it. You have to bleed for it.
It’s like Zuko from avatar, he was a part of the fire nation at first. Then once he got away from them he spent a number of seasons getting (rightfully) yelled at and beat up for his past and the all the pain he caused other people while he slowly endured and worked to atone for his actions even as one of the main characters straight up threatened to kill him if he ever stepped out of line again once he did finally decide he could be good. And that’s a guy that didn’t even kill anyone.
Then you come here. and a general theme that horde posters have of redemption is: “Make the alliance just as bad” or “The horde shouldn’t have to hurt/suffer to get redemption”
The fact is, the only way TO get redemption is TO suffer just as those you’ve harmed have suffered. That’s the only way anyone can find redemption, its the only way the horde can gain the honor that’s always eluded it. Atone, make it up to your victims and ask for forgiveness failing that then at the very least seek to atone regardless.
Imo even after all this time I’m still shocked horde players en masse haven’t been asking for this. You want faction pride? You want to be redeemed? You want to feel like the good guys? Then work for it.
Ask for quest where you help the night elves rebuild. Ask for quest where you save a night elven child from some rampant beast only for the parents to attack you immediately after delivering the child and you have to run away. Hell, go crazy and ask for a cinematic where a thousand random horde members throw themselves into the afterlife to rez half the nelves that died at Teldrassil.
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Killing diplomats is a special tier of evil tbh.
Just under killing Doctors Without Borders.
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lmao.
right in the url description, it says he’s a spy.
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Ah okay, so when you said
you forgot to add the “unless you accuse them of being spies first” corollary, then it’s okay to not only kill them but also desecrate their corpses
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he just literally was a spy.
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Every diplomat is presumed to effectively be a spy who will report anything of note that they witness in your country back to their own government.
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Come to think of it he wasn’t even publicly accused of being a spy, the questgiver just assumed he was and had the player lure him into a private location and gut him. Dude might have died without even knowing why, only seeing his hosts suddenly turn on him.
Don’t forget that the “sensitive information” that the ambassador was observing was part of a guided tour provided by the Thalassian government. His “spying” was taking notes about the things that the Blood Elves were showing him anyway.
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And this is why I think that redeeming the Horde is, reasonably, completely impossible. Your suggestion would make the Horde player experience a miserable dog#### of shame, shame that is 100% unearned by the people playing. The Horde player no more deserve to have their story become worthless shameful #### than the Alliance players deserved all the garbage there were put through. Both sides pay for/play for fun, and deserve fun. We were both served stupid hateful waste from moronic writing.
BOTH SIDES were unfairly dragged through excrement, and the only RL people who should be punished for it is the people in charge of creating it. Alliance players did not want nor deserve to be forced to play N#z# victims and Horde players* did not want nor deserve to be forced to play N#z#s.
*okay, maybe some Forsaken and Blood Elf players did. Those guys can be edgy.
I would honestly rather that the Horde embrace 100% psychopathic evil where the Warchief was literally Hitler and the daily quests were kidnaping, torturing, and eating alive 10 Alliance children in the name of Satan before I would want a Horde player experience of contrite subservience groveling in mud kissing Alliance toes for… how every many centuries it would take before the scales became anywhere close to ‘even’.
I have no interest PVP, but genuinely feel that the Alliance and Horde should ALWAYS be enemies and HATE each other. I just want it to be for logical reasons, and if BFA proved anything, it’s that the people writing it probably can’t even spell the word ‘logical’ correctly.
Now, you could possibly declare that all this did happen, but it happened off screen during a potential time skip. That’s… okayish. I guess. But then some will say something to the effect of ‘Well, if it doesn’t happen in such a way that it HAS to be experienced it in-game it doesn’t ‘count’". Well, no, #### those people. They’re just trying to ruin others’ fun for their own gratification.
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Can you elaborate on why? Because this is a very fascinating statement that I think could lend some insight as to the psychology at play here.
Is every diplomat working in tandem with armed insurgents like Prospector Anvilward was?
I look forward to your excuses.
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The quest itself said that Anvilward didn’t have anything to do with the sanctum malfunctions and was literally just observing them (which, again was with the full knowledge and consent of the Blood Elves.)
Even if there was definitive proof that the Alliance had been sabotaging the sanctums (which there isn’t actually, the evidence the Belves found was circumstantial) killing Anvilward still didn’t accomplish anything, because he wasn’t involved in the sabotage and it would have continued with or without him.
In fact it was actually counterproductive because the Blood Elves could have simply detained and interrogated him before expelling him if he was found culpable.
The reason the Blood Elves killed him had nothing to do with his culpability in sabotage or lack thereof. The quest giver even says as much; it was to “make a statement” and for the Thalassian regime to save face by covering up the fact that they were compromised.
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Doesn’t matter. That’s the nature of being a diplomat. It’s why the very concept of diplomatic immunity exists.
The questgiver broke all the rules of diplomacy by killing the dwarf as if he were an unsanctioned trespasser caught conducting espionage. As an invited diplomat, he was there in an ambassadorial capacity, meaning any misconduct on his part should have been handled by sending him home, followed by either formally demanding recompense from his government or declaring war for their complicity in his actions.
Instead he had said diplomat murdered on the down-low, explicitly trying to keep it secret because he knows he’s not supposed to be doing that. Going through proper channels would have “looked bad,” so he (and the player) willfully violate one of the most fundamental tenets of international diplomacy.
Killing foreign diplomats outright is roundly and historically considered bad between governments because it means everyone else will claim justification in killing your diplomats in turn, destroying the most viable channel of correspondence between nations seeking to avoid open war in the event of escalating tensions.
Also they weren’t insurgents. The word “insurgent” specifically describes a revolutionary, seditious or rebel partisan. So the night elves in Quel’thalas would only be insurgents if they were acting in opposition to their own government.
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It’s actually kind of bizarre. If the Alliance was caught sabotaging the sanctums which caused them to malfunction you’d think that the Blood Elves would be trumpeting it from the high heavens to everyone that they could because it would relieve the Thalassian regime of responsibility for mana/energy shortages and deflect blame onto the Alliance.
For some reason, they didn’t do this, instead seeking to limit the spread of knowledge that the sanctums were malfunctioning at all, which suggests that they might have been malfunctioning completely independently of the Alliance’s presence, a distinct possibility given how hard the Blood Elves were pushing them.