How to actually "Redeem" the Horde

Lore Story Forum
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So, the Hordes in a bit of a rut at the moment. BfA really hurt the entire “Morally Grey” Aspect most of the Horde players (who aren’t in it for raiding) had. We followed a Warchief who did things agruably worse then Garrosh, yet no one questioned it. I think there is a way to, if not “redeem” the horde, make the setting more Grey at the very least.

Say the Hordes been radicalized from the years of the Alliance doing frankly horrific things then never answering for them. This isn’t an “Alliance Bad” thread, but a way to give the Horde itself a more understandable Motivation and try to make the setting more grey after BfA’s insane Black and Whiteness. The Alliance has basically directly antagonized every single Playable race in WoW, often for little to no reasons, and then had their actions either whitewashed or just ignored by the greater narrative while the Hordes had to deal with their problems, to the point of completely restructuring their government.

We’ve heard em all Before, Baal Modan, Taurajo, the Purge, the “No Witnesses” Scene, Genn’s assault and attempt to kill Sylvanas, Forsaken Diplomats to Alliance lands never being heard from Again, literally all of Troll History, the Orcish Interment Camps, Vulpera Purge Squads. And Despite what some people may claim, only possibly the Camps has any actual Moral ground, and since they wound up devolving into Slave labor they lose that real bad. We can even point out before the Zandalari sent a small fleet to attack Kul Tiras for no reason but to justify an alliance counter attack, the Alliance had captured the Hier to the Throne on a diplomatic mission and sent troops into Zandalar to destabilize the country.

Theres also the whole issue of “if it helps the alliance its neutrality, if it doesn’t its not”. Theramore sending repeated military incursions into 3 whole horde zones and Dalaran giving the Alliance both Military aid and using their reasources to secure the Bell aren’t “Neutral” actions, yet are portrayed as such. These facts would likely just antagonize the Horde nations further. If we play up these actions, we may not be able to make BfA not Insanely black and white, but we can open up more black and white story telling in the future and give a way to resolve the conflict that isn’t “War of Annihilation”.

Now before the 10,000,000 alliance players say “It’s not fair, the Horde did worse” or “The Horde never faces consequences for its own actions, why should the Alliance”. The Horde does face consequences, its just never the ones you guys want because they do internal reforms and stuff, and actually making it so the Alliance is morally grey will likely make it so, if we ever have another stupid faction war expansion, you guys get to commit the Warcrimes, since as of right now the Alliance has to be morally justified in all their acts, meaning they never get to do the whole “Wiping out entire settlements” you guys are salivating for.

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I guess I will bite.

Given Orcs were literally a hostile alien race that came to conquer the world and tried to exterminate humanity, it is sort of understandable that Humanity would not like them just running around Azeroth after their defeat. It was also a matter of great internal debate among the human kingdoms what to do with them; they could of just as easily been exterminated… so…

The loss of the early Forsaken Diplomats very much falls on the head of humanity, as that was before the Grand Alliance had even formed from the Ashes of the Alliance of Lordaeron… and before the Forsaken had even nominally become Horde members. Also there was the fact humanity was reeling from the Scourge, so when zombies come up it is sorta understandable why they might be a wee bit trigger happy.

The purge of Dalaran was not an Alliance action, and Varian was quite angered by it as it ruined his ongoing talks to bring Quel’thalas back into the Alliance.

Given they were attempting to secure it from a guy who showed no reluctance to using weapons of mass destruction… it is hard to really argue securing the bell was really a hostile action against the Horde given Garrosh turned on the Horde as well.

The reason Sylvanas does not use the attack on her in Stormheim in her own justifications is because her own actions were reprehensible and self centered given the Legion was actively invading the world, and she didnt want to bring them to light. Notably, the troops there were only Forsaken, not Horde combined troops. She was attacked while trying to enslave what amounts to WoW angels, which in retrospect we have to consider was likely being done on Zovaal’s orders to make the Val’kyr into his slaves. The Lantern looks like it was likely powered by shadowlands Domination magic, given its bluish color scheme, after all.

Taurajo was an attack yes, and the closest the Alliance really gets to being ‘morally grey’ outright, but it was done under false information of an imminent attack. The Alliance also intentionally allowed all civilians to escape, and the Horde itself accepted it was a legit military target.

I am not saying the Alliance is squeaky clean, but the Devs have given us a silly number of outs. If you want to balance the scales it will need to be done in the future, not using the past as justification. Fortunately you have a chance of that with Turalyon who is kinda super militant and already musing reclaiming old Alliance (of Loraeron) territories. Without the moralizing force of Anduin there, the warhawks might actually get their day with the Light backing them.

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All of this is good and I want add to it by saying that Turajo is moot because even Baine defended the attack on it in War Crimes, backing the Alliance claims it was a military target.

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On how to redeem the Horde, the imprisonment or execution of everyone responsible for the Bombing of Theramore and Burning of Teldrassil would be a good place to start now they have a Council instead of a Warchief.

The problem is the Alliance’s crimes pale compare to the Horde’s, and the spin you put on those events doesn’t change that. Even disregarding the Bombing of Thermore, the Burning of Teldrassil and the Wrathgate betrayal still gives the Horde a longer rap sheet than the Alliance.

For example, there was the Horde’s Pandaren forced labor camps and the trolls weren’t always innocents (for example, when Talanji was imprisoned, she was with Zul. After what Zul tried to pull off in Zul’Gurub, Zul’Aman and especially the Isle of Thunder, it would be incredibly stupid of the Alliance not to capture or kill him if they got the chance; even Rokhan admits freeing Zul is a horrible idea once he sees him).

Genn’s attacks on Sylvanas were because she took his homeland and killed his son (even taunted him about the latter), the only thing Genn did wrong then was going after Sylvanas when he should have been focused on the global demonic invasion.

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How to actually “Redeem” the Horde

Need a different narrative team. Either for the game in general, or to some sort of Classic+ offshoot IMO.

gl hf

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Just a edit: Sylvanas didn’t intentionally kill Liam Greymane. He jumped in front on her arrow aimed at Genn. Sylvanas follows this old moral code if you kill the leader of the opposite faction that’s a demoralizing loss the the enemy and it always backfires on her ie, Genn and Malfurian.

She’s trying to have clean wars… but her best intentions always fail and she then has to resort to backhanded tactics.

Sylvanas isn’t responsible for Liam Greymane’s death. Liam is responsible for his own death and even Alonsus Foal tries to tell Genn this in Before the Storm.

It’s not black and white, it never was.

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Part of the problem with “redeeming the Horde” is that the writers have thoroughly trashed what the Horde used to be and replaced it with something new that I don’t care about. They’ve told us that Thrall was a terrible leader, that he wasn’t a real orc because Taretha was nice to him a few times, and that the organization he founded was dishonorable. They’ve made the whole thing retroactively irredeemable.

This nuHorde has been restructured, repurposed, and rewritten to be something the current creators prefer, but it’s unrecognizable to me as the organization I joined back in BC and grew fond of.

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I miss being part of Vol’jin’s Horde. That’s why I joined the Horde in the first place. It hasn’t been the same since he died.

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Baine accepted it was a valid military target, Vol’jin’s thoughts on the matter were not clear but at the very least he saw nothing wrong with avenging the camp, Bloodhilt and the Tauren survivors did not see it as a valid target.

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Wasn’t that the Alliance?

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It was. The Horde equivalent was almost literally feeding children to demons. :roll_eyes:

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Best way… leave this whole nonsense of “redemption” behind and just move on.

The Alliance finds the very existence of the Horde offensive… the Horde would be wise to look for it’s “redemption” elsewhere… preferably on the field of battle… because that IS what this game is about.

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oh yeah…i remember…mr “i hate fel and warlock” hellscream…it was such out of character for garrosh to put an warlock in charge…

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My thread did it better and remains the ruling Horde thread :relieved::nail_care:t4:

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Happy, I’m going to put this as politely as I can.

We had a five-thousand post thread on this same topic, which itself was an offshoot of a three-thousand post thread on the same topic. The reason for these numbers is because we can’t agree, at all.

Horde players want an Alliance that bends and twists to its will. They want a morally corrupt antagonist that they can justifiably beat up. That concept not only doesn’t exist, but can’t exist in a satisfying MMO, period. Horde players also do not want to reconcile with the moral bankruptcy that the writers heaped onto the faction, or accept that whatever happens to them impacts the Alliance and vice versa.

The Horde cannot be redeemed, fixed, rehabilitated, or changed - assuming that we as players have any influence, which we don’t (the writers have utter scorn and contempt for us) - until we all agree that everyone deserves a satisfying experience, and then actively work to create that satisfying experience. We won’t do that because everyone is hurting right now, and no one wants to give anything up.

So, enjoy the numbers that you’ll get on this thread. You will certainly inspire a lot of discussion. But you’re not saying anything new, and nor will this thread conclude on anything meaningful.

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Your thread was actual Horde players talking about how the Horde can be fixed.

Kyalin’s thread was Alliance players calling for the Horde to be literally castrated or put into “reform camps”

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Wrong, that’s wrong and you know it. Further, you also know my position because we talked about it yesterday.

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Maybe it wasn’t your opinion but that was the overall aggreed upon reformation of the Horde from an Alliance PoV. Your thread was very Alliance dealing punishment centric and was the reason Baal created a new thread targeting Horde players to weigh in on a better alternative to fix the Horde’s problems internally.

We can’t agree if the Horde needs external punishment or internal change. But the Horde has changed a lot internally since the War of Thorns so all Horde mostly agree we are taking steps in the right direction to address the problems with the Horde.

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What did you say about arguing with trolls?

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To paraphrase a hero of our time :

“We don’t need their redemption.”

Sure, Sylvanas used the Horde. And we used her as well - to settle old scores. She used the truth for selfish ends. That doesn’t mean we throw out the truth.

If I can credit Blizz for something, it is that they paid some lip service to Horde tragedies. Sylvanas brings up a lot of stuff to Saurfang. Saurfang thinks upon Stormheim and Genn. Later, Sylvanas brings up Camp Taurajo to the Tauren’s face right in their home town. This stuff happened in Before the Storm and A Good War - so I guess you have to look for it a bit.

However, in the game, during BfA, a Tauren NPC is still raw about Camp Taurajo, and he is eager to fight the Alliance - even after Teldrassil. It is just one Tauren NPC - but it speaks to the fact that there are Tauren mad about it, regardless of what Baine says.

Then we have the Blood Elf who we have to fight to free Baine. I mean, the circumstances are repulsive - I am with Jaina and the Alliance Spymaster, and Saurfang, killing loyal Horde troops, to free Baine. Bleh. But that aside -at least there is a Blood Elf that gives voice to Horde outrage over the purge, and our lack of justice.

Oh. I guess the topic is ever green. Or perennial. Or like a weed that spreads and multiplies.

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