Everything Highborne had was coming from titans, the stuff that they created and was the most impressive were the javelins because they were the only thing referenced in entire Zin’Azsharai questing experience.
I never heard of that heart thingy but it was likely used with assistance of Well’s Powers.
We should judge how elves were doing once they were cut from titan’s cool’aid.
I’m sayingback then all their power was not their own, everything they had was Titan’s stuff to begin with.
Wrong, or is the earth now made by men because men explored the earth? The Titans left this behind, that’s true, but the night elves simply explored it.
The heart was by far the most powerful thing the elves ever created, capable of controlling the magic of the entire world.
The moon crystals - of which there were once 60 around the Well - are the next in line to explicitly control the Well of Eternity.
The spear is also very powerful, yes, and Felo’melorn, as well as Azshara’s sceptre, which can control the oceans of the world.
These artifacts were not created by Titans, but by the elves after they explored the Well, they did nothing else, explored. They didn’t get a manual, so I have to disappoint you, what you say here is simply wrong.
they get never a titan cool’aid, never ever, they don´t even know the titans before they explored the past.
The only beings ever with titan cool’aid were the titanforgedes.
I’m saying that it was still not their creations it was already titan’s creation.
If I’d leave for a kid let’s say a some sort of acumulator and that kid was using said acumulator for years then it was not kid’s achievement but mine since I made it.
Then how come it wasn’t used in WotA?
Yeah but you said yourself it was made to draw the power from well, it was not Titan-level of creation.
And somehow she needed the Titan’s creation to open the rift.
Felo’melon was artifact but artifacts were also made by humans and dwarves.
This is not Titan level of power.
And I said that everything they had was the result of having access to Well, if they didn’t have access to well their power wouldn’t allow them to conquer majority of the world.
The best example you have is war of Shieftin Sands- what it is to be cut from titan toys.
The well was a accident, but the rest, the rest here…was all created by themselve and even partly in competition with the pillars of creation:
objects that could control the magic of the entire world. Like the iris or the eye of Aman’Thul
the sceptre, able to controll the oceans of the worlds like the tidestone
thats is the reason that’s why they were considered to have the potential to compete even with the Titans.
They had a powerful source of magic, but these items were not all created at or fed by the WOE. Like the Scepter or the Spear of Suramar.
it was used, it was the heart was cut off all beings of the well of eternity.
no, you´re wrong here: The Moonstones were able to controll - another tool for that - to controll the magic of the woe.
Hö? What are you talking about, the Tidesceptre was a artifact weapon too, and was a gift from xavius to Azshara, with the power to controll the oceans of the world.
They could explore the WOE and use it in parts, but to claim here that they got everything for free and only the WOE is the reason that they were able to create such artifacts is wrong, because there is more than one artifact we know that contradicts that.
Was the WOE a violent power-up, yes
Was the WOE the basis of her research and her advancement: Yes
But was the WOE so useful only because of its power: No.
And because of Shifting Sand, I find it funny, because the night elves stood there against the armies of an ancient god…because of dragons, not one wild god helped them, not one, whereas the Zandalari were only not wiped out then because the whole Wild God Pantheon of the Loa supported them in their fight against the insect races.
Oh so it was artifact made of WoE. So it all boils down to controlling something which they stumbled upon and abused to no end, but what wasn’t theirs to begin with.
I’m talking about Tidestone of Golganeth opening Nazjatar so Ships could fall. They needed that artifact in order to do that, if they didn’t need that and scepter was able to do it they wouldn’t need to steal it to begin with.
Loas were never mentioned in Aqir wars in original books, Iassume they did assit trolls but it was still a troll victory because Loa would never do a job for trolls. And I would never made a claim that trolls had potential to rival titans so I don’t get why you bring them to begin with.
I was using the example what is is when nelves are on their on without titan toys and power ups. Everything big they accomplished was becuase they had access to this well and used it in various ways.
The massive power they had was not their own it was Azeroth’s power.
So I found it laughable that they could - as mere mortals- contest beings that gave them this power to begin with.
And funny enough I don’t see people jumping with this claim when eredar are concerned. The race that was lightyears ahead of nelves and were picked by Sargeras becuase of their potent in strenght, power and knowledge. And even them had to buffed up by him to have a super power.
wrong, it was not made of the woe…it was made by the highborne to controll the magic of the world.
the scepter was powerless at that point, because the big bad sword in silithus
loa were there, read chronicle again
It was even said that if the night elves were already known when Sargeras started his crusade, he would have chosen them.
The Eredar were the only thing Sargeras KNOWN in WOE books 25,000 years ago when he met the night elves that he would have taken them if he had known them.
this claim was not from player´s…it was from a arcane being called aluneth was the titan knows…and the old night elf knows…no player ever before did that, i see only a trollplayer argue against it,because you didn´t like it.
They couldn’t control magic of the entire world, Arcane is magic gained from study, WoE was the incredible power source to buff said magic.
Oh you meant the shaman artifact? Then it was created with WoE, and hardly to control the entire ocean.
I was reffering the original books in game though. But overall this has nothing to do with the main point.
Lol, where it was said? And if that was true Sargeras wouldn’t immediately try to use them for fuel. The fact was that nelves ended up being assaulted anyway.
If they were as potent as Eredar they would be given the exact same chance even if Eredar were already added to the roster. But that’s not what happened.
But he didn’t take them when he met them. BL is expanding army, nothing stopped them from incorporating them as well.
Not it was artiface made by human-elf offspring. It’s judgement could be perfectly false considering it’s a tool.
No, I argue it because it doesn’t make sense considering the set up.
Titans were the ones who gave elf the toys to play with. If Titan gave it Titan can take it away, and they’re nothing. They never had a chance to rival those who gave them a power to begin with.
The only thing you have is opinion of a tool.
I never understood night elf players propping up Azshara’s victories over people when Azshara made pacts with everyone under the sun, and the night elves jealously guarded the blood of the most powerful being in the entire universe, which empowered them when they bathed in it.
The Well of Eternity is the night elves’ demon blood.
But they don’t. You even get to go back to Tirisfal to partake in the god-awful quest regarding Calia. There’s no-one there, except for the shambling dead.
It would make 0 sense for an enemy to be driven from the shoreline, with all assets built upon that land destroyed, built upon an inhospitable land in which nothing will ever grow again, where the dead roam en masse.
And even then, Silvermoon is just a ride from the north. How are they going to hold that land without any reinforcements, with a dependent supply line, with an enemy who’s height of power is practically next door in terms of marching men?
That’s not a solid answer from me, chief.
Yeah. That’s still normal on assaults. I cannot underline how extremely lethal it is to attack a place. You need those sorts of odds to even begin the attack. That is the cost of doing business in ye olden warfare. It’s still true to our modern day as well, though to a lesser extent, simply because of how technology has rapidly progressed.
Alleria is about as high as it gets on the food chain. If a Grand Marshal knows something, she knows something. They seem quite knowledgeable on the other on-goings, besides.
There’s also the added fact that Nathanos can “make” them “dependent” on civilians, so as to get them to arm themselves and fight. I sincerely doubt that’s necessity.
Anduin talks about the Alliance, in all its entirety. Of course Tyrande isn’t going to be there if she just defiantly split off from the Alliance’s army. Of course Turalyon, Muradin and others weren’t going to be there. That’s what an army does. It’s not a death ball.
Elegy also refers directly to the manpower invested into Ashenvale and Darkshore. Manpower deliberately split as a feint.
Your views on “Alliance superiority” are misguided and border on propagandized jibbering.
Any advantage-- stated, perceived, or otherwise-- is completely ephemeral with the writing style of World of Warcraft.
Fun to postulate on but at this point it just feels tiring to go, “[faction] would be better at [topic] because of [thing]” to have the writers pull something from thin air to justify that thing not mattering, or better yet, just ignoring that it even exists.
‘https://www.wowhead.com/mission=1927/lordamere-lake’
Horde follower quest: “The Bloodfang Pack controls Fenris Isle. Create a distraction along the Misty Shore to lure them out of position, allowing Horde refugees to escape Tirisfal across the water.”
'https://www.wowhead.com/mission=1912/silverpine-reinforcements"
Alliance follower quest: “Horde reinforcements from the Sepulcher in Silverpine Forest are marching toward Tirisfal under High Executor Hadrec. Halt their advance.”
As you can obviously see, the Alliance controls Tirisfal in lore.
‘https://youtu.be/N9ONyL3pIWY?t=1729’
Also, In blizzcon was stated that after the victory in Lordaeron, the Alliance has control over the Eastern Kingdoms, “very close to the full Aliance” and the remaining members of the Horde are in Arathi making their last stand (we know they lose there too).
If Tyrande, Muradin, Turalyon and Danath armies are not in Orgrimmar, then obviously the entire Alliance army wasnt in the siege… Many were controling E.K. You cannot even prove that the entire Army was in that last fight.
Meanwhile, the entire Horde was in that last battle. Is stated in the chapter description and Nathanos states they have no more troops and need the civilians.
And again: In Lore the Alliance has always won every major battle against the Horde. Every battle during the Second War. Every battle during the War of Draenor. Every major battle during the Fourth War. That is canon.
The topic is about “How much of an advantage do the Alliance really have?”. And the answer is: The Alliance has ever won and was stated by Metzen to be Azeroth standing super power in Wod, just 2 years before BFA.
Fenris Isle is in Silverpine and near Graymane wall. The Sepulcher is closer to Lordaeron than Fenris Isle. The Bloodfang Pack never stopped fighting for Gilneas, even after the hostage situation that sounded their retreat. In short: they secured a Fort. The Sepulcher is a military installment and Fenris Isle does effectively nothing, aside from cement a foothold in an area that they’re already warring over. That does not mean = won.
And nothing has really changed there? Eastern Kingdoms has always been predominantly Alliance, save for Lordaeron and Silvermoon.
Arathi Highlands is not a “Last Stand”. It’s where the two territories encroached. I’m sorry, but he’s offering a sales pitch, not reading a map. Arathi was little more than Highlands with one point of entry for a single vessel, that was the connecting point between Ironforge and Lordaeron. The real point of contest would be Lordaeron, because that’s the actual connection between Quel’thalas and the outside territories.
That is what we call a ‘mobile army’, the actual meat of an army. They matter the most, because they are the ones who are mustered for a siege, who provide relief when a local position is under attack, are reinforcements in a place where they cannot locally recruit, and so forth. Much of what you see in the Barrens, or Redridge, are just that; garrison forces. They oversee the region they are tasked with holding. They do not mobilize and go elsewhere. They cannot do that, because that’d be compromising the army’s hold over the location.
Something that should go without saying; there is no battle where every gun and every man is set to fight against the entirety of another army.
Take logistics from Nathanos Blightcaller with a grain of salt. His agenda was in with Sylvanas’ death cult thing. Any decision he made was very likely not out necessity, but to have more resources piled upon something, to ensure more death.
Debatable “win” conditions, at plenty of junctures.
???
And why I’m arguing with you, because Metzen, god bless his soul, made that claim, and then went on to contradict himself in the next few words he said after that. Because if victory comes at the cost of “everything”, it is not victory. It is suicide. And it an exhausting argument to have.
Thus does Warcraft “have” a story of conflict. If there was one superior side, they would’ve wiped the other off the face of the earth already. There is no holdie-backsies.
No it isn’t? Fenris Isle is directly south of the Undercity in Lordamere Lake.
Fenris Isle is closer to the Undercity than the Sepulcher, at least by water.
There’s not much salt needed to be taken here. It would be hard to trick the Sylvanas loyalist player into thinking Orgrimmar’s forces hadn’t been depleted when they could see for themselves as they were going around the city trying to rally the militia and take down anti-Sylvanas posters.
I think at the end of the 4th war, the Horde actually have a large advantage in military power. As, going into the final battle, Sylvana’s forces are described as being superior to Anduin and Saurfang’s forces combined. And afterwards, Saurfang and Sylvanas’s forces rejoin, without suffering any casualties.
So unless the Horde suffered WAY more losses fighting N’Zoth than the Alliance did, the Horde should still have the advantage in military power.
And considering the Horde is now united as a council of equals, while the Night Elves have all but separated from the Alliance, I wouldn’t say they have the advantage in political unity either.
In economics, the faction with Goblins will always have the advantage.
I’m not sure how to measure cultural advantage.
On a soldier to soldier basis, the Horde has the advantage in terms of their troops. Tauren are incredibly strong and much larger than what we see in game, armour a bunch of them up and send them in a charge and there wouldn’t be a human shield wall in existence that can hold out. Pound for pound almost every Horde race is physically more powerful and dangerous than an Alliance one, and the Alliance races that are physically more powerful than humans are fewer in number than their Horde counterparts in general (with exceptions, of course).
Technologically and logistically the Alliance wins out, of course, though if the Zandalari Empire gets whipped back into shape along with the Nightborne, and if that Iron Horde tech is better integrated, that gap could very well close pretty quickly.
On paper, the Alliance would win purely because of one single member race. Not the humans, but the dwarves, who are objectively the only true superpower on Azeroth right now. The united Three Hammers are essentially powerful enough to solo the Horde if they were used to their full potential, in every respect they outstrip all the other races in terms of capability in some way.
Of course, they’re ignored for the sake of the plot, much like the Vindicaar and the various Wild God allies of the night elves who probably wouldn’t be too pleased during the War of Thorns. Per the current plot, the inference is that the Horde is currently in a better place than the Alliance, since apparently Sylvanas’ forces were ‘the only force possibly capable of defeating N’zoth’, meaning they were superior to the joint rebel and Alliance troops. Couple that with getting rid of the person who was actively trying to sabotage things and draw the war out, and the Horde is (if we ignore the same things the writer’s are) now the stronger of the two.
In fact, giving the Three Hammers their due basically nullifies the need to go to Kul Tiras to an extent. “Oh no, we need their fleet!” “Anduin… we have an airforce of mini-Thors that fought dragons in the Second War.”
Something I want to point out is, you can absolutely hold Fenris Isle without having a grasp over Lordaeron. The Forsaken didn’t have hold over it until the Cataclysm. In-between, Lordaeron refugees took the Keep and liberated it from the Gnolls, who had allied with the Scourge and took the Keep before them. It is a good location, as it is surrounded by water and it is a fortified Keep, but it is by no means a product of taking Lordaeron.
The salt to take is; the situation is most likely not that dire, and that Nathanos Blightcaller, as well as Sylvanas Windrunner, are death cultists, trying to web in as many casualties as physically possible. If the objective is to obtain corpses, why not fill the local civilian populace with dread, arm them with spears and say “This is it! It’s all or nothing, each and every one of you is defending this hold!”.
The local peons aren’t going to know logistics. They’re going to hear what they’re told and say “well, let’s do it.”, or, they’ll revolt and die.
And they sure as a lack of rain in the south, would absolutely lie to the loyalist, because the loyalist is a pawn, in a game where the end objective is the death of all living things.
Sylvanas forces are described (by Nathanos) as being depleted in the war and in need to recruit civilians to fight the last battle. The entire loyalist and rebel horde armies are described (in the chapter description) as being completely recalled to fight that battle.
Meanwhile there is no evidence (still waiting for one) that the entire Alliance army was in Orgrimmar. You see no Blackmoon Army, no Stromgarde Army, no Silver Hand Army, no Dwarven Army, nor a Kultiran Army in Orgrimmar.
The Old Horde had tens thousands of troops (the New Horde only thousands) and had ogres. They lost all the battles in the Second War and the War of Draenor (against Ner’zhul horde). All the battles.
The New Horde lost in Lordaeron. They lost in Arathi. They Lost in every major battle of the Fourth War too. In lore the Horde has always lost a major battle against the Alliance forces. This is a fact.
If the Horde had truly a military advantage they could have won at least one battle.
It is nowhere neat Greymane Wall.
Your own point betrays you, as it is exactly that Sylvanas and Nathanos are death cultists that would have lead them to grinding away the Horde’s soldiers to the point that their ranks were depleted.
Sure but…Anduin said the same thing about HIS army fairly early on in the expansion.
Setting aside that apparently the old Horde crushed Stormwind, swept across Dun Morogh and Lordaeron, almost taking the capital, without winning a single battle, your point is oddly based upon a narrative in which the Alliance were the sole protagonists and so were always fated to win in the end.
It’s like you posted “Sauron had vast armies, including Ringwraiths and trolls, yet lost all the battles of the War of the Ring. What a chump.”