And the cycle continues. No one is winning here but everyone is losing time.
June 19, 2016, in the middle of WoD (12.7%):
https://web.archive.org/web/20160619202608/http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/global-stats/classes
Sept 7, 2017, in the middle of Legion (9.9%):
https://web.archive.org/web/20170907125806/http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/global-stats/classes
Now (8.6%):
https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/global-stats/classes
12.7% to 8.6%. A drop of 4.1%, much larger than all the other classes, so the reasoning behind the unusually large drop must be directly related to the Hunter class and cannot be explained away with an explanation that would apply to all classes (like changing to Demon Hunter or getting tired of the game).
Whatever happened between WoD and Legion caused a massive drop in the Hunter playerbase. You can attribute some to the changes to MM and BM that many players didnât like, but you can similarly attribute the drops in other classes to similar issues. Heck, Rogues experienced the second largest change, going from Combat to Outlaw, and they share a similar playstyle to Demon Hunters yet their representation only went up. Such a dramatic loss must happen for a reason, and the single biggest reason that could explain why it happened was the deletion of ranged SV and the introduction of melee SV. Even further, our numbers continue to go down even as Blizzard has introduced more ranged elements into melee SV, so clearly this ranged/melee hybrid thing isnât working.
If we are to believe that how well off a class is can be reflected by their playerbase numbers either rising or dropping, then it can be said pretty definitively that the Hunter class was more well off prior to Legion and prior to these changes. How could you see hundreds of thousands of players dropping the class (keep in mind these numbers take into account the influx of players starting to play Hunter for melee SV) and claim that it is better off now than it was when we were the most popular class in the game?
6 Likes
Why do you people always think that drawing a false equivalency with other really bad design decisions makes this particular one fine?
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It isnât a false equivalency. The claim was that no other class had gone through such a âdramaticâ change, and thatâs clearly not true.
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Yes it is. Survival went through the most dramatic change. So much so that you couldnât even consider it the same spec. It was a replacement rather than a change. Blizzard even admitted it themselves.
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DKs used to be able to tank on every spec⌠demo locks had meta taken away, then they became a zoo-lite specâŚcombat was turned into outlaw⌠I could go on, but youâre going to just lie and ignore that several classes had just as dramatic of changes implemented to them.
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The victim will always say he/she/it had it worst than others Darke. Thats the card they are using. No matter what you say, it wont change it for them.
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Death Knights didnât change from all tanks to all DPS. Their specs were focused in on one of the roles that they could already fill. Blood could tank or DPS, same as frost, and unholy to some extent. They could all also DPS. What didnât happen was them being changed to something they didnât do. Frost wasnât changed to a healing spec. Unholy wasnât changed to a ranged DPS spec.
Demo lost one ability, a defining ability for sure, but they maintained their specâs focus on demons and are still a ranged DPS spec.
Combat had its name changed and a change in theme, but it still has main gauche, adrenaline rush, blade fury, killing spree, combat potency, ruthlessness, etc. and they are still melee.
Your examples include specs that lost some of their tanking capabilities but still retained their abilities and passives, specs that still retained their original design and role with some moderate changes, and a spec that was renamed but also still retained practically everything that made the spec what it was and didnât change roles. Survival Hunter had all of its unique abilities and passives taken from it. Explosive Shot? Gone. Black Arrow? Gone. Lock and Load? Gone. Ranged DPS role? Gone. The comparisons you are making arenât even close to the same.
11 Likes
If you want to draw an equivalency between RSV > MSV and other classes, the answer you are looking for is DK (losing Frost and UH tanking). MAYBE you could make an argument for Monk (losing Fistweaving) or Disc (being forced into Atonement). If you really wanted to stretch it, you could make an argument for Warrior with Gladiator Stance, but given that was an optional talent that offered a defensive benefit to prot tanking as well I would disagree.
Combat to Outlaw was a rework. Demonology becoming a summoner was a rework (and almost exactly the same scope as the BM changes in Legion).
Every class in the game has had major reworks at least once or twice. No other class in the game (again, DK excepted) had a spec change role entirely.
2 Likes
But even then, DK didnât change specs, they just had specs that could both DPS and tank, and they were focused in on one of those two in Cata just like all specs were given designated roles. At that time nobody was changed to a completely new role that that spec couldnât already fill. In fact that had never happened in the history of the game before Survival Hunter was changed from ranged DPS to melee DPS.
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Even if you want to make this case, itâs still not nearly as drastic a change as SV. Going from a tank melee to a dps melee with all your base abilities in tact is not nearly as drastic a change as going from ranged dps to melee dps with none of your base abilities.
2 Likes
I had an FDK tank alt in Wrath. I no longer had the option for an FDK tank in Cata.
This is equivalent to having a Ranged SV Hunter in WoD, and no longer having the option for Ranged SV in Legion.
Letâs call a spade a spade here.
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Tank to mdps is a complete role change. I would argue more drastic than rdps to mdps.
I say this as a 15 year Hunter main who has not touched MSV outside of completing the artifact quest for completionistâs sake, and attempting the SV mage tower once.
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Itâs not. At the end of the day youâre still melee. A tank is just a bad dps that is way more survivable and generates way more threat. Still have CDs and melee abilities.
a 14 yr hunter main who never touched MSV outside of the artifact weapon and tanked on a druid from BC into Legion, played tank and melee classes in multiple games, etc.
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Frost could both tank and DPS. It wasnât a role change, it was a role reduction. All classes were given designated roles and designed around them. Your role as a player of Frost might have changed, but the Frost spec itself did not. It still retained its abilities and its passives, and it still DPSed just like it did prior. That is completely different from SV Hunter, which lost its abilities and passives, lost its only role of ranged DPS, and was changed to a completely new role that it never was. It didnât play anything like it used to, which absolutely cannot be said about Frost DKs.
So there isnât a separate tank option in LFD then? Its just DPS and Heals, and you hope that you got an MDPS who
No, tank and DPS are entirely different roles. Trying to deny that does not help your argument.
I want RSV back as much as anybody else. I think that DK moving to Blood only for tank was a positive change because it was a balancing nightmare. I think that SV moving to melee was a pointless change motivated by non-Hunter-mains thinking SV and MM were too samey without ever playing each spec to the fullest.
None of that changes that DK had 3 options deleted moving from Wrath to Cata.
2 Likes
Tank: Does low melee dps
Melee: does high melee dps
Tank: Has defensive CDs and generally more survivable and in some cases has CDs that can be used offensively
Melee: Has offensive CDs and generally less survivable and usually has some form of defensive CD
Tank: Generates more threat
Melee: Generates less threat and in some cases can remove or reduce threat.
Tank = more survivable but bad melee dps
Tanks are intended to soak damage so that other players donât. DPS are intended to avoid damage as much as possible while killing things.
They are not remotely the same. As a Druid tank from BC to Legion, why would they separate Feral and Guardian into two separate specs if they are basically the same?
Being a tank doesnât mean you arenât a bad dps. Yeah, your job is to keep things hitting you, but think for a moment, if you could hold aggro and do 0 dps youâd still be a tank. Doing dps is not relevant to the role of the tank. The dps that tanks do is generally sub par compared to other dps. Thus a tank is a bad dps even if they are a good tank.
Thanks for making my point.
When I ran on my FDK alt, I had zero concern about doing DPS. Are the bad things hitting me? Am I still alive? Good, Iâm doing my job.
When I run on my Enhance Shaman alt, I am primarily concerned about doing DPS. Am I hitting the bad things? Are they not hitting me? Am I still alive? Good, Iâm doing my job.
1 Like