Can you point to any inspiration from WC2&3 Hunters as to use of traps?
And that’s largely beside the point, which was, again, that there those two classes have such vastly different volumes in precedents across WC to WC3:FT that they probably aren’t that worth comparing for their fidelity to those precedents.
Former Death Knight appearances:
Death Knight (WC2)
Teron Gorefiend (WC2, identical abilities)
Death Knight (WC3)
Arthas (WC3, identical abilities)
Whereas Hunter’s lineage includes…
Archer [used crossbows, but… WC1 days be…]
Spearman [was more of a spearthrower, but…]
Elven Archer
Elven Ranger
Troll Axethrower
Troll Berserker
Alleria Windrunner
Zul’jin
Rifleman (Human > Dwarf)
Archer (Night Elf)
Huntress (Night Elf)
Priestess of the Moon (Night Elf) – see Trueshot Aura
Idk man Surv is my favorite spec in the game to play in PvP. And I was playing it back when I started playing in BC too. There’s just so much movement all over the place, lots of utility, and it pumps. Using a giant sword or axe is also extremely fun I think. Opens up a lot of interesting mogs that would just look weird with a bow. I just also wish dual wielding 1 handed weapons was also a possibility.
I also got over the “muh lore” type stuff. Technically you’re a hunter, not a ranger. Sometimes the hunt calls for a bow, but sometimes it calls for bombs and swords.
Huh? Are you trying to argue for the validity of melee hunters with me?? I already agree???
One of the troll axe throwers are troll trappers with an ensnare in WC3
Even if they didn’t have any inspiration for traps when they gave all specs access to them, that would mean established fantasy isn’t even needed to change or expand upon classes like Hunter, which immediately dismantles anyone’s arguments that it breaks the fantasy when they’re melee.
Yes, hunters have more options in the form of characters and fantasy to pull from when designing specs? I’m just really confused about what you’re arguing here.
While this wasn’t the point of what I said, as an example, the WC3 ability ‘Death Pact’, which was used for self-sustain(arguably a primary focus of the Blood skillset of DKs), also happens to be part of the Blood category, as it was realised for the established DK class of WotLK.
The spell Death Pact, that “Sacrifices an undead minion” to heal yourself is a Blood spell, not an Unholy one, because it heals and healing = blood? C’mon man, you know how weak this is. It’s not even just for Blood, it’s baseline.
I genuinely don’t understand what point you were making then. Were you not trying to make the point akin to: ‘Hunters pull from several themes and characters but DKs don’t’?
Wow a lot of hunters have serious narcissism issues and should maybe look into it lol. There are 3 hunter specs, 2 are ranged and 1 is a hybrid…and u guys are actually whinning that survival has a melee flavor to it, are u fing serious lmao. Imo its awesome survival is a melee/mid range spec, having all 3 be ranged is boring asf, going melee with survival was a good call by devs imo. If u want all ranged play mm or bm and ask for changes to those specs to suit the needs u wanted survival to accomplish for u and leave survival with its melee for players like me and many others who actually enjoy that theres a melee hunter spec. And before someone states the ridiculous comment that ive seen before in these hunter forums about how players who want to melee should go to warrior etc the hunter class in no way has to be a all range class, hunter nor ranger classes means a bow user, just a common weapon for the archetype. Maybe next spec will be dual hatchets :). U guys love bow users…thats great, i do to but i also like some variations in my specs which having melee in survival does just that.
Survival could use some love sure but it being melee oriented is definitely one of big drawls for the people that play it and is a good thing for the class over all.
After reading this entire thread, I gotta agree with you Shiochi.
I too, love the melee hunter concept, I do wish they’d help it out though. They as in blizzard, with some tuning passes/increases.
TBH surv gave me the impression thematically and fantasy wise of what BM ‘should’ be when you DO look at Rexxar and his close bond to his pets. I always wanted to play a class like that badass half orc.
I was happy it got a change back in legion, it gave it a fresh coat of paint.
Because you need to get to the point. I know the point you’re trying to make with them so I’m pre-empting that and responding to it. I’m not going to get strung along in a game of 20 yes/no questions.
Yep and I even pointed this out in my post. He didn’t read it though because it wasn’t a one word yes/no.
His argument is that because Death Knights are mostly based on Lich King that means Hunters are mostly based on Rexxar and therefore making SV melee was correct. Because he can’t conceive of a Hunter class beyond Rexxar’s archetype, and he can’t understand that Death Knights are a far more specific concept than Hunters.
I have to wonder where this obsession with a minor side character of 1 Warcraft 3 mission and a few quests in Desolace and Blade’s Edge Mountains comes from. It’s not just Hound, either.
P.S. Funnily enough in the video you linked in the other thread here they listed the WC3 hero backing of the Hunter class as Head Hunter, Ranger, Huntress. Notably Beastmaster is missing. To be fair, I think they just forgot to include it because obviously the Hunter class does get pets from Beastmaster, but it goes to show where they imagined the core of the class came from and it wasn’t melee combat.
Yes, because we lost a great ranged spec to get this one. Not a good trade.
Were you aware of that?
Yet apparently having 3 melee is all good because that’s the state of the class you’re posting from.
Funny how a DK and a Rogue swoop in to help out melee SV. It helps to show where the intended audience of the spec lies.
Needless to say (or at least it should be needless) it was not a good idea to turn a formerly popular ranged spec into just a handicapped Hunter that predictably became the eternal pariah of class design.
Why don’t you melee players go back to your own class instead of stealing specs from Hunters? There are 12 other melee specs in this game; again including your own class which is entirely melee. There were only 3 specs that used ranged weapons. Melee players did not need or deserve a Hunter spec handed to them. Hardly any of them showed up to play it anyway so “many” is not the right word here.
The Hunter class in WoW was absolutely established and built as a ranged weapon user. It still is, actually, with SV designed as an awkwardly shoehorned deviation. When you start a Hunter at level 1 you have a ranged weapon, and even as SV they have to make the animation-only crossbow just for the class tree stuff to work. Hell, one of our class tree abilities (Barrage) doesn’t work at all for SV. That’s a warning sign that it doesn’t fit the class well.
The reason you hear “go play a Warrior” so much is because it’s clear that SV is intended to appeal to the types of people who enjoy Warriors, Rogues, Death Knights, Paladins etc. rather than those that enjoy Hunter. Many who defend it, including you, are posting from melee toons and come with a detestable attitude of melee good and ranged bad. This game already does melee to death so it’s absolutely valid to tell melee players to get lost in one of the more-than-enough melee specs rather than demand even more from ranged classes.
Some variations = a spec throwing away the unique and iconic aspect of the class just to be like the 12 other melee specs. True melee brain logic right here, folks.
“One of the big draws” yet it’s the most consistently unpopular spec they’ve ever made. Sounds like it’s not a big draw at all.
It also sounds like it’s not a good thing for the class over all but rather a good thing for melee tourists that otherwise don’t like Hunters very much.
Buzzwords don’t make it a good decision. That “fresh coat of paint” must be lead-based because since they did it it’s been a dead spec unless they overtune it to be the very best in the game and force people to play it.
Melee fanatics love to portray the pre-Legion ranged SV as obsolete, boring, and derivative while saying the new melee SV is fresh, innovative, and exciting, but they can’t get around the fact that it’s objectively more problematic and unpopular after Legion than before.
Most other game developers would pull the plug at this point. Square Enix made a similarly disastrous rework of their Bard class in the first FF14 expansion, and when it predictably and demonstrably bombed they changed course. And that game has an even worse fanboy problem than WoW. It’s only Blizzard that quadruples down on terrible decisions out of pride and spite.
I’m still hoping that they’ll rework our mastery to reflect some more Rexxar flavor. I love MM hunters mastery giving them even more range, currently spirit bond does not feel like a bond at all. The healing is weak and it buffs only 2 survival abilities (you have to take explosive shot to get another.)
Disregarding what I’m asking, and instead assuming the least charitable possible interpretation of what you believe I’m trying to conclude and attacking that instead isn’t called ‘Being intellectually honest and open-minded’, it’s called ‘Strawmanning’, just so you know! But I’m pretty sure we both know that.
Strawman, and not what the point of the line of reasoning is.
All I wanted to know was whether or not the patch had improved the numbers for the spec enough to make it competitive IF someone WANTED to play it.
Whether or not the spec should exist is a completely unrelated debate for some other thread from 3 or 4 expansions ago.
Anyway…
It does look like some people answered the actual question in the thread with their opinions on how much impact the patch had - so thank you to the folks who managed to stay on topic.
I mean, Id love to actually talk about it instead of how these threads usually devolve. But we cant have nice things and it just ends up being pure cancer so /shrug
