It’s weird that the melee spec titled “Survival” absolutely never wants to be in melee range due to its low survivability, but also needs to be in melee range to do appreciable damage.
SV needs a Disarm, and/or some other mitigation to help with the onslaught of Ret/Arms/DK/DH that are everywhere in SS.
I think the main issue is the classes you described having either to much damage, to much uptime, or both. This whole meta of fury warriors healing there health to full 5 times over is dumb. Only actual classes with a healing spec should be able to heal at all and as a dps even then it should be very minimal. Once they adjust all that, they can then tone down the damage and hunters are looking much better off.
Hunters level of survivability is what I think is healthy for the game. It’s all the other unga bungas that are the issue, imo.
I don’t disagree, but we aren’t seeing nerfs to the mouthbreather specs so I don’t have my hopes up
I don’t have my hopes up either. But the truth should be stated regardless. This is the natural path when you push healers to spend their offtime dealing meaningful damage as opposed to tuning the fights to minimize there offtime. We are slowly blurring the lines of the holy trinity. It will be all but gone eventually.
Your cherry-picked quote of what I said/wrote.
“most Melee Survival Hunters don’t give a damn about the well-being of the other 2/3rds of the Hunter Class.”
Here is an unedited quote of what I said/wrote.
[quote=“Llars-winterhoof, post:137, topic:1483149”]
Honestly, to me it seems that most Melee Survival Hunters don’t give a damn about the well-being of the other 2/3rds of the Hunter Class.
[/quote] So then:
[quote=“Ornskal-area-52, post:146, topic:1483149”]
And where’s your evidence for this?
[/quote] and I thought ‘Dammit! They want precisely, what I was trying to avoid having to supply!’
I didn’t want to make another list of why to dislike MSV.
I didn’t want to add to my own list.
I’m tired of bashing other Hunters. (Tanais, you I see as some type of Grima-clone, so np.)
So anyway, I was careful to make no accusations, no absolutes, my questions and statements at the personal level. I didn’t want blood. But then:
I got asked about my feelings…
and you:
I’m dense, not sneaky.
You though, have maligned my character. committing libel with your slanderous accusations concerning my moral and mental fitness. Or perhaps you were in the other camp?
Singular archetypes, and were not heroes
Also, name the most renowned hunter?
The most immediate answer is of course, Rexxar.
… in WC3 he was the only hero unit bearing resemblance to a hunter, lol.
Rangers were… Rangers. Archers. Thats essentially saying a rifleman in WC3 is more of a hunter than rexxar. Lol, what a joke.
You are of course getting singular archetypes who bear correlation to specs confused with broader class concepts yet again.
Annnnnnd the thread is STILL being derailed. You really cannot help yourself, can you
I’m not just making up that hero thing, you know. That’s how Blizzard said they envisioned the class back in the day.
I’d also argue that Sylvanas is a much more renowned, powerful, and important “Hunter” (in the sense that a lore character can match up with a WoW class, which is never a perfect 1:1).
He’s definitely the most fleshed out example of one aspect of the Hunter, the outworlder, but not of other aspects.
Alleria, predating either Rexxar or the almost equally featured Sylvanus, was very much the sort of spec ops guerilla warfare sniper. She wasn’t an outworlder by choice, but rather just as part of her ‘behind enemy lines’ or ‘high risk extraction’ missions, but there was still a strong aesthetic of an individual or team apart from the line and file, away from the way things normally work.
On the other hand, the vast majority of precedents for Hunter, even as stated in the early interviews about the birth of the Hunter class, work only because of that line and file; they’re backline damage that’s otherwise vulnerable to melee rush but skew the fight to start damage dealt sooner for the more ranged-stacked force than the more melee-heavy one.
Pot meet kettle
Ehh, kinda, sorta. I would think it’s less “use my source instead (because it agrees with me), and yours is useless (because it agrees with you)” than being focused on two different things.
One’s a recap of a single fan who calls Hero A the most iconic Hunter because Hero A was a kickass character (likely implicit claim: allowing for that range of influence would be better for the job), and the other is the actual developers citing their influences for the Hunter class (likely implicit claim: it’s better to stick to the class’s conceptual roots*).
For disclosure, again, I don’t think Hunters need to be disallowed from making good use of melee weapons, nor do I think Survival is some travesty just for being melee (I personally like BfA-DF MSV a quite a bit more than WoD RSV – basically “good” rather than merely “decent”), for instance, but…
…this seems less “pot vs. kettle” than, say, “heat vs. oven”. Bepples seems to like class themes to be narrower and cites something long ago from when the devs almost agreed with him. Skol seems to prefer not to constrain class breadth and instead take from any among the most stand-out examples, even if not as easily matched a fit.
Personally, what I miss is that we never really got an Alleria (spec ops, guerrilla warfaretype, with a synergetic blend of what’s thus far been MM and RSV and, say, a mixture of steadied shot and very rapid movement, both). I’d dig seeing a Zul’jin-esque Headhunter precedent too, tbh, but the prior is one that’s been both cohesive, very possible, and yet never quite there.
Alright, this topic got derailed. As a surv who tries to push 15+ atm (have been KSM as surv every season, 20+ with OP surv in s3 and s4), its…not great atm. Those buffs were noticeable. Sure you’ll do fine in lower keys, you can can face rolls those. But your damage compared to other classes on AoE is very lacking still. I can pull 50-60k overall depending on how tank pulls, while the other two dps do 65-80k. I can swap to MM and pull that 65k+ in runback of same key.
Our saving grace is our single/boss damage is actually pretty good.
Our bombs just hit like a wet noodle, even after buff. They still not strong, At end of the key, I have to scroll down to start finding the bomb damage. It might not be so bad if like 1/3 our tree wasnt deciated to our bombs.
Replace the bad KC reset has a chance to fire an arcane shot with wildfire cluster, that would be a start, who knows, maybe all we need…for damage. Defensives…thats another issue and a hunter one, not surv.
Bruh this is you 30% of the time
before i hear about it, this is me on an alt for some reason idk why I was logged on it
I agree. We need cluster back. That would go a long way in AOE damage. The arcane shot thing with this and it would fit much better in what we do.
As you said defensives are a HUNTER thing, and also needs to be tweaked.
After playing a fair amount of pvp, I think all we really need is an extra charge of disengage. If we had that the class would feel amazing with multiple ins and outs. Having only one disengage and cheetah on such a long CD, c while having 3+ engages just feels bad most the time when playing with a equally geared player.
…Well, besides how reliant we are on pet for some reason, while it also not having well scaled HP as it always dies to melee cleave for free.
This is anecdotal, but today I topped overall DPS for Normal VOTI, topped all single target focused fights (being 2nd only to a much higher ilvl Hunter on Ras cos we’re trying to get him the bow). Single target is fine, but I don’t have much flexibility for cleaving or sustained AOE, which I felt on Ras, and definitely on Council. This is including the Deadly Duo bug so honestly once that’s fixed, I think single target is a good spot for us damage-wise.
I’m not sure about our sustained AOE, like is it a numbers problem or a rotation problem that needs a slight rework. I’m currently fulfilling almost pure single-target focused DPS role in my guild run (like focusing only boss on Brood), just to play to SV’s current strengths.
For single target are you going all in on the spearhead build or more the coordinated assault end?
I’m all for replacing Quickshot with something more interesting, or at least less restrictive in its niche (left side ST access slightly synergetic with Pheramone Bombs), but Clusters ain’t that.
A Cluster talent with the strength you appear to be looking for would just become a non-choice for anyone doing M+.
If it’s to be a non-choice anyways, just faintly tune down Mongoose Bite (since our ST is actually pretty decent), and make Wildfire Bomb stronger baseline.
Or just aura buff and tune down MB for its excess.
I’m all for more interesting talents, but Clusters was pretty much just a basic WFB damage buff, for which we already have a dedicated talent.
If Improved Wildfire Bomb were avoided, or not predominantly taken even by bomb-lovers, we’d just need to bring it to the edge of feeling obligatory in M+ and not quite over that point.
I do think wildfire cluster looks really cool though so it’s got that vs a normal damage buff. It’s also interesting cause the mini bombs are smaller and dont get full coverage but on larger targets more increases the single target damage. Even in pvp you usually only get hit by 1 or 2 or the cluster bombs, especialy when in motion as they have a drop time.
They were kind of like an explosive dot in that regard and are visually more interesting then a straight damage buff.
I’m using the standard pure Spearhead build for single target. I have a Coordinated Assault build that I use for Kurog because of the timing of his add phases, and I’m debating on using that for Ras next time. I’m going to try out a Fury of the Eagle build for Council next time, to see how it does for more sustained AOE.