having so much damage be on a passive was always strange and unhealthy. no amount of aura buff would make up for the “nerf” since empyr hammers are uncapped and nothing we do is uncapped. ret was always gonna take a net nerf without a wide sweeping change that would effectively break the spec and design they have for all melees.
aka uncapping an ability which blizzard doesnt want to do
Many talents only increase damage in melee or very near melee range, and many abilities do 0 damage if casted or cant be casted above their melee range or range below 20 yards. Can Ret do some damage at or above 20 yards? Yes. But the majority of Ret damage wont happen without being at the target.
I wonder how folks would feel if we added up all abilities ranges, granting a range value of 5 yrds to melee ranges abilities, and divided that sum by the number of abilities, and then made that the range of all abilities. That way Ret would have 1 range for every offensive damage source(including hero abilities/offensive effects).
Lets just imagine that the new range for every offensive ability and damage effect was 20 or 16 yards or whatever that averages out to, so there was no 21+ yard damage coming from Ret. Then could we talk about making steed faster or replace it with something like a charge optionally on a choice node?
And make us completely a mid range class?
I’ll pass.
Well they are complaining about the 20+ yard abilities but not sympathetic that HP generation and BoJ resets, inturupts, and a bunch more of our kit is much lower range.
I dont know if there is a godly or otherwise thematic explanation to justify making what is 5 yards more and mid range less, but consistency would be nice. We dont have invisability to sneak up on our enemies, cant heal in pvp outside of LoH, big defensives are dispelled, cant MS them if we get there, no disarm, limited CC that is dispellable, no dispell, and no instant mobility, we should at least get one pvp tool.
DK pvp talents are awesome, Bloods got 6 that are awesome and Frost has 3 I really like.
Ret has Spellwarding and Sanctuary, they are nice, but using BoP or Spellwarding causes the other to go on CD for 4 or 5 min, kinda lame.
I mean i agree with them. While some abilities that traditionally have range such as judgement and HoW should retain their range as they had that since the beginning, i don’t think all our other skills should go beyond maybe 10 yard range.
We are labeled a melee class. Our theme is dishing out justice, but we are designed in a way that others can get punished less with justice by being out of our main range (melee). We should feel like we have the ability to bring justice swiftly and hard to escape that justice (while jot in an OP way) and having range is not solving that. I myself am mot sympathetic towards paladins that celebrates we have range as compensation on not having a gap closer, as it in reality is compensation for nothing.
What do you think Retribution needs to aid it in dispensing justice, considering the current reality of the above mentioned features I listed?
I think it needs to lose the range on fv, decrease range on BoJ. Re-attach the melee theme of being a paladin, and get a instant gap closer.
Our spec mechanics is too reliant on being melee anyways so the loss of range for those skills won’t be joticable as long as we have a way to reliably reconnect to our opponents.
Before mentions steed, it had been reviled as a movement skill since it’s inception and fails to act like a gap closer every time, espaicially in pvp content. We can stand to loss that too for something better.
His argument is invalid because people aren’t using a great kit? That’s a PEBKAC problem. Your argument here is directly applicable to literally any other DPS spec in the game, which makes it a nothing. Never mind the 10% figure you pull directly from your rear.
Maybe it’s just you.
“If only ret Paladin was arms warrior, it would be better.”
Pass. I like ret’s current iteration. Instead of wasting your breath further on your personal pvp bugaboos in a thread about a misguided PvE nerf, why don’t you just go play one of the several other melee specs that already do what you prefer? Sorry if they don’t align with your personal class fantasy preferences, but that falls into the category of Interesting Choices.
Unlike others, i am not asking for things like mortal strike. Just a gap closer. Doesn’t need to be a 1 - 1 to charge. If they make shadowstep vs charge both unique, then they can do the same here.
You mean the lack of retribution in todays ret?
Ok
No, you’re asking for that in exchange for giving up mid-range attacks. Pass. Go play arms.
LOL. Nothing says retribution like the gap closer you want for arena, eh? This is a nonsense point. Wow spec names hardly inform actual spec design. How the hell does the word discipline relate to the direction that spec has ever taken? Enhancement? Balance? Subtlety? If there was a point to that, it evaporated over a decade ago.
What he’s asking for, is for Ret to more closely resemble Ret from several expansions ago by losing or lowering TV range(FV), in exchange for the same movement distance(I think) over a shorter time(duration of time to make the same or similar distance). What Ret lost since then was a nice Dispell, most of its damage done or damage increasing pvp talents, and all the players power most specs lose when a new expansion comes out. For that last part, an example would be Ringing Clarity on Divine Toll, without the shadowlands modifier, Divine Toll doesn’t do much. Design or tuning suggestions are often inspired by how things feel, and to me, plenty of things feel bad right now. If you think everything is great, or somebody else thinks everything is adequate, that’s a perfectly acceptable opinion to have. No one’s trying to tell you how to feel.
As we saw from the Rogues and DKs that have added their thoughts, they fear a world where Ret has both, FV range as it is now, and instant/nearly instant mobility. The discussion is, should we make that exchange? To my knowledge, no one that has commented on this thread can green light or veto the community proposed change, we are just talking and that’s okay. We know they’re lying or uninformed if they say things like, “but you can do all of your damage at 20 yards”. We know we can’t do half of our damage if kept at 20yrds away, but they like to sensationalize.
I was feeling like, since a lot of our damage is melee or close range, having a gap closer that is not countered the moment you press Steed and hop on a giant horse for everyone to see, would be pretty cool. What I am not saying is that Divine Steed doesn’t function perfectly fine for mythic plus or raid. I’ve never felt slow for either mythic plus or raid. But being faster than normal while being feared in PVP isn’t particularly helpful (to the Paladin).
I do think BoJ and Fv needs to loss range. BoJ should be set back to it’s original 10 yards, and fv be melee. In exchange I am indeed asking for more staying power to the target, not more free range movement power (which is what steed covers).
I never liked divine toll honestly, I did like that necrolords variant. At least we have it somewhat still with EP. (mind you EP/EL is only useful in melee range)
Pretty much. How I see things, when I role a ret paladin, I expect to be a heavy armor wearing holy knight with a 2 hander. I don’t weild that 2-hander for no reason. I want to hit things with it. When I cast FV, just knowing it’s a ranged skill, I know the paladin just swings it air and a giant other hammer appears over the enemies head a bop them like a toy hammer. That feels bad by itself. I might as well not be a paladin at that point. (at least this is one example. there is others)
Which is ironic when you think about it. As rogues and DK’s do have range skills, specially outlaw when it comes to rogues. But melee classes ought to be forced to stay in melee with hardly any staying power in range. Being in melee is the point of a melee class. If you wanted range, there is classes for that, for a reason. Ret just is not it.
Basically this.
And it would! There was so much iterations blizz had tested for paladins to have over the years, some pretty cool ones too. So it’s not like they can’t come up with one.
There is also a large discussion on how reviled the skill is since leagion. It’s not a very popular thing in the paladin community. And a meme was created just for the skill for us.
Can we stick to the topic, you already have a thread about this stuff. This is about our adjustment and unintended nerf.
I dunno, I have this feeling that the nerf to HoL is intended.
They have to balance the 2 hero specs equally so it’s actually a choice. They still have work to do on that account.
All I hear is just 
Ret Paladins continuing to be everyone’s favorite punching bag.