How is mw?

Classes Monk
21

That’s the thing.

Feelycrafting is bad and disapproved for a reason.

In all circumstances mana tea is objectively worse than the current rashok/tier combination and it’s just not possible to objectively math anything different

Sure you can “feel” however you want but it’s added downtime to the rotation.

Any argument thst you use it between pulls is nullified because mage food exists.

You can’t argue that “oh it’s spiteful week! Let me bring a MW monk this week because they have mana tea!!! They don’t have to drink between packs” You’re delusional.

Everyone drinks between packs even at higher keys you can’t get around mana usage for other healers either.

The dev really needs to reconsider what mana tea actually does and how it works to better fit the current version of the game .

I have provided several alternatives.
Specifically -
1)make mana tea like purifying brew so you can spam as many individual charges as you want, and let each charge regenerate mana passively just as rashoks and the tier bonus do. If you want 3x mana or just 1.
2)create a Choice node so that instead of 50% mana reduction you can choose between a damage bonus, a healing bonus, or a mana cost reduction. This allows fistweavers to get a damage amp, mistweavers a healing amp, and new mistweavers can get more mana efficiency if they are struggling

These changes INSTANTLY make Mana Tea an exciting and worthwhile addition to monk. I need to do increased healing in this window? I spam Mana Tea 4x to get 8 seconds of improved healing.

I need damage now??? I spam mana tea a few times to get a damage buff.

Exceptional design right there and done — seriously why isn’t this being done?

22

I’ll concede your points about Pres and druid. I’ll also concede MW may be as hard as disc in raids.

I maintain disc has worse output in raids and is harder in keys. The only thing saving disc in keys currently is the tier set allowing instant radiances that last longer.

23

This is not feelycrafting, please don’t confuse that with my opinion. Mana Tea returns more mana than SOTC does and that is based off of numbers. The “I think” was in reference to my opinion that Blizz not letting us flounder after Rashok/Tier goes away and is taking steps to keep our mana in a decent spot is a benefit of the new Mana Tea.

Sure, but it isn’t far off and Rashok/Tier isn’t around forever so they’re setting us up to be better off in the future.

You are missing the point entirely. Between pulls is between mob packs not necessarily leaving combat/entering combat. You can reread what I wrote about chaining pulls together, you do not drop combat in those situations and Mana Tea for 5 seconds is less downtime then combat dropping to drink. My point stands.

No one thinks like this, you keep attempting to put words in my mouth and it’s honestly exhausting so this is going to be my last post on this thread. I encourage you to reread what I wrote initially instead of trying to argue against it without understanding it first.

You’re welcome to your opinion but all of my points all remain relevant as this is coming from lots of high end M+ experience.

1 Like
24

No your point is null and sinks into the sand.
Does paladin worry about that garbage?
What about shaman?
What about any other healer.
no not a one has a mechanic to restore mana between pulls while stuck in combat
And they don’t have to worry about it either!!! Why does monk? We are already behind.

You are literally justifying mana tea based on the fact that it allows you to regen mana during spiteful while you are stuck in combat or chain pulling as opposed to dropping combat and drinking water

No other healer is worried about this, or the group just clears the spiteful when you are needing to drink.

I’m sorry if you think I am putting words in your mouth I’m not I’m providing counter arguments because you state your opinion as objective fact and I am providing sound argument that you cannot provide a retort for so you are deciding to run away.

Realistically you should just hop on board with my idea or at least provide feedback on my version of mana tea

1 Like
25

To be very fair. Depending on your content level and type certain builds may be mandatory

If they are coming at it from a content level and type that doesn’t align with your personal experience then you will have different ideals

If I only do 15s then literally anything works
If I start doing world first keys then there are very different metrics such as survivability, damage, burst healing, etc etc that need to be figured out
Which normally a very limited handful of builds will handle, which most of these builds are slight variations of each other
IE swapping 1 talent point

We need to also remember that keys do not scale linearly so comparing 23s to 25s is a whole different ball park
So once you hit a point, builds start to normalize because of the constraints of scaling, which depends on the requirements of said content

If we are in a meta where only healing mattered and your damage was pointless, you’d see more builds leaning towards heavy healing builds but we don’t live in that world

I will say I haven’t read both essays since this post since holy heck y’all wilding out

4 Likes
26

I have no problem pushing meta builds at the cutting edge of keys but up through even 22 it doesn’t really matter what you play.

The reason I push alternative builds is to make it so new MW have more success with the class to shift the e community perception to be more favorable if more monks can find success healing.

The point is that I really think mana tea is a negative baggage added to the class.

If they just made a simple change to make it passive instead of channeled already that would be an incredibly huge improvement.

If they add more exciting effects than 50% mana reduction that’s icing on the cake.

We shouldn’t be happy with this change because it’s just added downtime to the rotation for something that other healers who are already excelling over MW don’t have to deal with and MW already is lacking in it’s kit (specifically not having a brez or lust, and it’s mass dispel is on a 3 min CD and it’s absorbs are pathetic compared to mage mass barrier or augvoker shields)

2 Likes
27

Mana & efficiency is a concern for all healers in M+ at the level I play at.

I’m saying that Mana Tea is better than drinking and than SotC. It has nothing to do with other people wanting MW specifically because of Mana Tea but more to do with MW’s efficiency and allowing the group to be more efficient overall by allowing continuous pulling and maintaining momentum. Spiteful was just an example of something that would slow you down further if you are constantly stopping to drink.

Not running away, just choosing to spend my time doing something worthy of my energy. I provided all I needed to provide and my points remain accurate. You’re not providing a counterargument you’re just ignoring the points I made previously.

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28

So if you are saying this — why doesn’t holy paladin have to worry about something like this?

You have 27s and 28s completed — why aren’t you choosing to spend your time to promote an actually worthy change to monk rather than the current implementation of channeled mana tea?

Why not have a passive mana tea and a choice node for alternative effects than 50% mana reduction?

Wouldn’t you rather have the choice of a damage amp or healing amp instead???

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29

Mana is still a concern for them too, but we’re different classes so we play differently. Kinda wild how that works

Because I like this change & there’s real issues to deal with rather than complain about Mana Tea being buffed.

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30

It’s responses like this that prove that you have more time to play and more time played than an actual understanding of the mechanics of the class and what is good game design

Yea let’s just let an objectively bad mechanic slide because why not it reminds me of my life during MoP and it’s more mana right guys???

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31

Weird conclusion to try to draw from this but whatever helps you sleep at night.

Clearly not an objectively bad ability if there’s mixed reception on it.

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32

Bro so many peoples argument for mana tea is literally “oh my gosh guys we are having something that is more like monk during mists of pandaria oh em gee”

And not actually on the mathematics of its impact on our rotation.

Just because there is sentiment towards the past doesn’t mean it actually meshes with current game mechanics

Monk is behind. Stop justifying crap changes that INCREASE DOWNTIME when we already struggle with DPS and utility for keys!!!

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33

Personally didn’t play MW during MoP so there’s no nostalgia value for me. Just looking at it from a performance PoV which is also where most of the people I talk to are drawing from as well. Don’t really care how good something was 10+ years ago.

of all of our issues, DPS is certainly not one of them.

If you’d reread what I posted, it decreases downtime lol

34

If this is the case, you need to spend your time explaining how people can do big DPS as well as how to make changes that keep it better.

We need to improve the community perception of monk if it brings good damage you need to be the flag carrier for that sort of thing and spend time to explain how

35

I have numerous guides, I spend plenty of time in Peaks & answering questions, I do 1:1 coaching in LWIW, VoD/Log reviews in my own discord, and I do my best to represent MW’s performance mainly in keys. But please, continue to tell me how to spend my time lol

Most of the negativity I see towards MW is from the forums and I don’t think that’s a coincidence.

3 Likes
36

I’ve never heard of you or your content and I’ve been maining monk for years

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37

I mean this in like the nicest way possible but you must not have been looking very hard because it’s the first thing that comes up when you type “Mistweaver” into YouTube

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38

I use the wow forums

Also I’m mythic-casual so let’s all have a little sense of humor eh

39

I don’t fully agree with this as I think it paints the game in a very black or white sense, no inbetween

Just abstractly looking at the differences between the two talents they are very different

Flat Reduction Mana Tea (FRMT) is an ability that gives you short bursts of power when you need it but has a limiting amount of power spikes in a fight and you CAN lose them without any reward.
IE
If you have a 2 minute fight but your first mana tea spot is at 45 seconds. You just straight up lose 50% of your Mana Tea casts

Mana Regen Mana Tea (MRMT) is an ability that ramps up in power over time scaling directly with what you’ve done in that time. You can carry that power between combat instances. You also gain control over when and how long you want to drink without losing anything for making a bad decision.
IE
If you have 10 stacks going into a boss, that is just a free 10 stacks
If you start drinking then get targeted by some mechanic, you can just move and you don’t lose any unconsumed stacks

They have the same goal but handle the task very differently.
Personally I believe MRMT is much more flexible even if you might lose… 5 / (1.5 / (1 + your % haste)) GCDs every time you consume 20 stacks all at once

From my understanding of other healers, they all have to mana their mana to some degree over the course of a key.
To my knowledge of other healers their mana management is much more CD based
IE
If you don’t cast it at certain times in the fight you just lose that cast which results in lost EMPC (effective mana per cast)

We are also losing SoTC… which IMO hasn’t ever been a strong talent
People like to talk about I can just kick people to get my mana back!!! but lets do some math

SoTC only works when ToTM stacks are consumed… Which means you need at least 2 GCDs for any mana return

TP => BoK… for .45% of your mana bar ( .225% of your mana bar per gcd)
TP => TP => BoK for .9% of your mana bar (.3% of your mana bar per gcd)
TP => TP => TP => BoK for 1.35% of your mana bar (.3375% of your mana bar per gcd)

This is depressingly low mana for the amount of effort put in
Lets do some quick maths to determine how many GCDs are required for SoTC to give you mana for a SINGLE vivify
1 totm stack = 3.4 / 0.45 * 2 = 15.1 = 16 GCDs
2 totm stack = 3.4 / 0.9 * 3 = 11.3 = 12 GCDs
3 totm stack = 3.4 / 1.35 * 4 = 10.07 = 11 GCDs

That is a crapton of GCDs for so little mana.

We also factor out natural mp5 since… you get that no matter what you do

If you’re in a position where you truly need mana… SoTC isn’t going to be a large factor unless you’re having large extended periods of pure DPS

So in my eyes, the new mana tea gives us the power to actually control our mana and regain it… while the old solutions would only let us crawl

1 Like
40

Just because I hate mana tea in its current PTR version doesn’t mean I think SotC or current mana tea is good. (specifically, SotC is under tuned even for Ancient Concordance cleave let alone someone not running FL, and current mana tea is super clunky)

I use lifecycles because it’s objectively way better for M+ And not even hard to math out that if you cast every EvM/Vivify in an ABAB pattern that you get consistently much more mana reduction than SotC and Mana Tea combined.

I’m actually really sad to see lifecycles gutted it’s making me consider rerolling.

It’s just solely that the PTR version of mana tea should really just be passive mana regen on use to be comparable to the tier set and rashoks and really as a bonus it should have a choice for the effect instead of a 50% mana cost reduction to have a healing amp and damage amp option.

You guys are avoiding my proposal for mana tea for some reason but it’s objectively better than what is on PTR

2 Likes