Pick a female + make her insanely op = profit. Thats the 2015-current movie/game story meta. It’s been done over and over and over and over and over again.
Why not make sylvanas struggle and triumph over her opponents? Does showing her get hit (since shes female) lose market $? I dunno tbh. It’s just odd how every female is insanely powerful these days.
It looked like garbage really. One thing to keep in mind is Bolvar wasn’t Arthas. Bolvar was acting like a gatekeeper for the Scourge where Arhas weilded them and his own power with a lot more vigor.
Something to note, Arthas for whatever reason had no trouble with old gods. Arguably he was more evil, maybe that has something to do with it. As said, its a lead into the new story and its ment to show how strong Sylvanis is now. Garrosh 2.0.
Im still royally upset that Bolvar couldnt even get one good shot in on Sylvy. She got that thicc plot armor. The one time he almost got her with an ice spear she vanished completely.
But yeah, you also have to keep in mind that Bolvar wasnt using his powers anywhere near to the extent that Arthas was. I still dont understand how breaking the Helm of Domination shatters the barrier between reality and the Shadowlands though, since the Helm of Domination hasnt always been a thing.
Not only that, but lets just take the Shadowlands lore as canon and not retconned which it heavily is, if the helm armor and Frostmourne came from the Shadowlands (but came from the Burning Legion) and Im guessing they are trying to say its this link to the Shadowlands that when destroyed broke the barrier, why didnt Frostmourne break the barrier when it was shattered in the same spot the helm was shattered? What is so special about the helm? It allows the control of the scourge, which im thinking Ner’zhuls consciousness had to be expanded to actually use it, and it was a prison for Ner’zhul. Arthas soul was in Frostmourne so I dont know how his soul could have made that lateral move to the helm which would mean Ner’zhul still exists within the helm.
Its a throw away expansion for me. They have too many mess ups to fix with just the limited lore they brought forward and we all know they arent going to fix it.
Frostmourne likely was a blade that siphoned souls and sent many to the Necrolords as payment for his power. I dont think any bit of the Shadowlands so far has been retconned aside from Sylvannas’ experience after dying though. The Helm and sword were forged in the Shadowlands, either by Nathrez that could travel to and from the realm or stolen by them.
It is still a big mystery what exactly the Legion and the Void have going together. Xavius was an agent of both. It is possible that the Emerald Nightmare and the Rift of Aln are the start of an entry point for the Old Gods to access the Shadowlands. And that lore has been slowly progressing since Wrath with Yogg and Vordrassil/Grizzlemaw.
If the Nathrezim could travel there, being demons and Blizzard said Demons dont go there, while also saying that there was no way into or out of the Shadowlands until now (except from one person who escaped) it has been retconned.
And the Nathrezim were always demons, one of the first intelligent demons to come from the twisting nether so this whole “they made it there” when they have their own forges and have made plenty of rune weapons like Apocalypse, and Kil’jaeden has a habit of imprisoning souls in objects like the creator of Maw of the Damned and the LK items.
The Shadowlands has retconned a lot to bring DK lore into it. How would demons even know about it in the first place to be able to go there?
This whole stole it, which why would the forgemaster create something to control the scourge that didnt exist, how would the Nathrezim know about it to steal it, why would they need that specific forge? What is so special about it that is is the only thing that it is the only place that something like this could be created? The Nathrezim were smart with magic, and dealt a lot in necromancy, shadow and decay magics. Spreading diseases, soul manipulation and so on. Warlocks have an ability called drain soul, we even created a runeblade, Shadowmourne, that basically did what Frostmourne did and we didnt need this special forge in the Shadowlands. Its a retcon, just like so many other things.
The Legion was put together to fight the void. Sargeras seen what was going on and built his army to destroy the old gods and probably eventually the Void Lords if there was ever a way to get into the Void which is a realm in itself.
Sigh
We’ve ALREADY been to the Shadowlands before though, but not THIS far deep into it… I’ve already explained it before that the Shadowlands could be in layers like the Emerald Dream, with the very surface of the Shadowlands being what we see when we die and go find our corpses, or wait for a rez. And I think I’m not the only one who pointed that out also. Plus, others and I suggested that someone or a group, most likely the Nathrezim, from the Legion found a way into the Shadowlands in secret to force the Forge of Domination’s owner to help them create the Lich King’s armor, including the Helm of Domination, and Frostmourne. And they could possibly have brought some Saronite with them into that world too I think.
But about the Legion employing Void powers too, I thought it was just to enslave Void creatures and elementals to do their bidding. But come to think of it, I think it would be fitting if Sageras and his Burning Legion was trapped in the Void to constantly fight the Void Lords until they’re no more. Though if there turns out to be at least one good being from the void, like how Sageras became an evil titan, that could complicate things. Though it might possibly be interesting to see how like Sageras became evil, said void being became good, if done correctly. Though I doubt they’ll ever do any of that of course.
We have not been to the shadowlands. The entrance is the arbiter, unless you have some way that people can bypass the arbiter aside from the big gaping hole in the sky created by some helm being destroyed.
Assuming isn’t explaining. You cant assume however that the Nathrezim went there to make or steal the stuff because Blizzard themselves said demons don’t go there and can’t go there. This question was asked on a q&a panel. So there is that taken care of. Plus in the announcement for the shadowlands, they put in place rules to getting there, death. No other way in, no way out except for one person who escaped. That’s another big problem in this entire thing.
I am just taking what Blizzard has put in terms of rules.
There is also a problem of how people would know about the shadowlands in the first place. Since the requirement is death, you aren’t around anymore to tell people about it.
If you have something from Blizzard to point to then show it, otherwise no one has room for assumptions that goes against Blizzards own set of rules.
Them saying the Shadowlands is where the helm and Frostmourne were made just tells me they have no clue what they are talking about or don’t care about consistency and just want to bring 2 stories together. It’s not like they haven’t completely changed entire stories before, and they are doing it again now.
There is also this one weapon called Shadowmourne which is basically the sister to Frostmourne not created in the Shadowlands by people that aren’t anywhere near the skill to the Nathrezim in crafting.
Not to mention why would anyone in the Shadowlands create the LK stuff, to prevent souls from getting to the shadowlands, or to control an army of undead to be stolen in the first place? The only thing really left open is when these things were created, did the Nathrezim and Kil’jaeden have these things laying around for a rainy day? Or were they crafted specifically to be used on Azeroth and Kil’jaeden came up with it then?
If people would stop assuming and look at what Blizzard has said themselves then people should be able to see that it’s entirely screwed up with this expansion which at this point is a throw away in terms of lore.
Bolvar was worse than a new dk initiate. If we do take the shadowlands lore at face value then the question of why does destroying the helm open up this hole but the shattering of Frostmourne in the same place with its release of countless souls did nothing so many years ago? If it’s the link to the shadowlands that opened it then Frostmourne shattering should have done it.
Not to mention Bolvar would never take up Frostmourne if it was reformed since vol’jin was trying to find who told him to name syl as warchief, he talked about the balance being upset. It sounds like he wants people to actually go to the afterlife. Not to mention, who would want to use a blade that eats your soul as soon as you touch it like it did with Arthas.
I’m just gonna leave these quotes from the WoW Gamepedia here, but if even these are ignored, I’m just not gonna bother at all again.
" The Shadowlands can be seen as a shadowy version of the physical world, and can be routinely visited as a spirit when player characters die."
“The Shadowlands are accessible upon death, where the player-character can roam, and can only be seen by other spirits.”
Is that your example of visiting the Shadowlands? Corpse running? it’s just a game mechanic that happens to players, in terms of lore this doesn’t happen to anyone else.
We in game actually have been to the Shadowlands, but only on the surface level. He is right in saying that the Shadowlands is layered like the emerald dream. The spirit healers have been stated to be Kyrians from the Shadowlands that help our spirits return to our bodies should it be decided that we are not yet ready to die. Who decides that though is a mystery.
During the DK starting zone experience, DKs are tasked with stealing a horse, before they are sent into the Shadowlands to steal a Deathcharger from one of the Dark Riders there.
Dark Riders show up all over the place in Legion during order hall campaigns and weapons acquisition questlines. Dark Riders themselves are not from the Shadowlands, and were cursed by Medihv to collect artifacts for him after trying to sell him fake artifacts. But, these dark riders do possess the ability to step into the Shadowlands, just like Death Knights.
And to top it off, Death Knights have an ability as you should know called Wraith Walk. The ability description literally says: Sidestep into the shadowlands, removing all root effects and increasing your movement speed by 70% for 4 seconds.
Granted, it is a talent, but gameplay wise it is still there. Death Knights can use this ability to break free of movement impairment by simply fading into another realm.
That is just an assumption. There is nothing supporting the claim that the shadowlands is layered. Corpse running is just a game mechanic and can’t really be used when everything else points to when you die you die.
Those horses aren’t sent to the shadowlands, they are sent to the realm of Shadows. All of these things have been discussed already. Koltira Is haunted by shadowy figures that come from this dimension, Alistra pulls mobs from this dimension for training and wonders how a Cenarian Scout got in. The Shadowlands again has these rules that the only way in is death and no way out which this dimension does not follow these rules.
It seems like they had a different idea of what the shadowlands were in the past than they do now. But if you look up the realm of Shadows, that dimension that powerful death knights can interact with, there is no mention of it being called the Shadowlands.
A retcon is a fast track to screwing up entire stories, or assumptions. Just because there is some gap in a story does not mean you could put anything in that gap.
I wouldnt say that retconning is used to screw up stories, its more or less used to update stories that weren’t under development or to build upon stories that were dropped or put on pause. And yes, that “realm of shadows” is the Shadowlands. Even at blizzcon, they said that the map of the Shadowlands wasnt the whole place, and just a segment of it. Blizz even went as far as to say that the Lich King draws his power from (not the “realm of shadows/death” and not “just the Shadowlands”) Maldraxxus and the Necrolords.
This all being said, I still find the fact that breaking the Helm of Domination would “shatter the barrier” between the realms to be quite absurd.
No, it screws up stories. There has been stories that have been entirely been rewritten, stories that have had details changed like some stuff with Arthas, Legion stuff that was changed because Blizzard had a better idea than what was already established.
And yes, the Shadowlands is an infinite realm. That does not mean there are different layers to it. It also doesn’t add up with their story that the arbiter sends people to these specific areas and that’s it making an infinite realm to be somewhat useless. Unless after atonement or whatever else you can go off and do your own thing unless trapped in the maw.
Don’t bother arguing with Kelliste. It’s not worth it. I and so many others did until we all got headaches and either left the forums or started ignoring her. I think it’s best if you don’t bother with her too. I think Trumpknight and Mauden can be a bit more reliable to talk about the Shadowlands with. If I miss anyone, hope they can also be of help too.
Like I said, get better arguments. You guys are the ones that keep repeating things creating these circular discussions. Just like with what Zaela posted was already posted before and discussed and shown they aren’t the same thing.
It’s not my fault if you can’t come to terms with blizzards own rules, have to come up with assumptions to make things work that goes again Blizzards rules.
It’s a you problem.
Not sure about DK but if you remember DH’s excuse for coming back to life was that we have an “Immortal demon soul” and therefore cannot ever truly die.
I’m not exactly sure what every other classes excuse is besides being a game mechanic.
The idea of Icecrown, a Lich Monarch, or any crown or throne being invincible has been shattered. Good.
Sylvanas has freed us all from that nonsense.
Yes.
To the rest of us, you seem like the obstinate one, not willing to listen to any other reasoning. And you are also the one who “cant come to term with blizzards own rules”. Blizzard writes the rules, and we follow them, while you are also saying that blizzard is ruining their story by updating it.
You cant say two opposing things like that and expect people to take you seriously.
Thats funny. What 2 opposing things? I have listed rules, you just assume. You assumed the Realm of Shadows and the Shadowlands are the same thing, or “its just another layer to it” which there is absolutely nothing released by Blizzard that supports that assumption. Even the wow wiki lists other names of this realm. Shadow Realm or World of Shadows none of which say “Shadowlands”.
Even the explanation of the Shadowlands from World of Warcraft: Chronicle Volume 1 page 12, is different than what is being released.
"The Shadowlands are a tangentially linked realm to the physical realm that relfects opposite of the verdant Emerald Dream. The origins of the Shadowlands remain uncertain, but it’s believed that they have predated the Titans themselves. Many believe that mortal souls are drawn into this dark place at the point of death, where they remain forever. Sill others hope that their souls will go on to a brighter place, rather than languish for eternity within the could confines of the Shadowlands.
As the Emerald Dream is the spiritual realm of life, the Shadowlands represent death, decay, and shadows."
Bastion is not a place of death, decay, and shadows, its pristine, ordered, resplendent, and purposeful. Ardenweald is said to be the autumn and winter side to the emerald dream, instead of the entire shadowlands being the opposite sited from this other book.
Blizzards writing is flawed out of the gate, they dont communicate with each other, communicate with other writers, change things that have already been established like some stuff in Legion. Just look at the Broken Isles map from WC3. Or where did Thal’Dranath go from when Legion was announced?
The Broken Isles were pretty small, consisting of 4 major islands and a few smaller islands with Naga camps around it. Izal-Shurah which was once a great Highborne Library in the city of Suramar… where is it now? Arauk-Nashal? Game files for Shormheim were in a folder called “araknashal”. Arak-Nashal which was east of Izal-Shurah was most likely Suramar ruins, but now its most likely stuff to do in Stormheim with Nashal the Watcher, at Nashal’s Watch and the Cove of Nashal all named after a vrykul called Nashal instead of what was in WC3.
What about the Pillars of Ascune? A series of arches that lead to the open ocean. The Sormreaver Wreckage?
The Broken Isles were retconned to make it bigger. Things changed and so on. Suramar was just ruins and this was only around 11 years before Legion happened. Gul’dan was also the one to raise the Broken Isles, or at the very least the Broken Shore out of the ocean but there is no signs of that.
Should we look to have things be consistent? Or should the playerbase just let Blizzard ruin their lore to the point where people just dont care about it anymore which people are starting to not care about it because its so bad as of late?
Are the Shadowlands rules a retcon? LK armor origin?
Its not my fault in the slightest if rules contradict each other, that is Blizzards fault… right?