How did I do with this Archon tree concept?

I did a bunch of research on icy-veins and carefully scrutinized and took notes on the talent trees, and came up with an idea for Archon that…well, I’m not sure how good a job I did:

https://www.deviantart.com/lookoutherecomestom/art/Ideal-Archon-Talents-Iteration-1-1027059034

They keystone talent provides an oscillating buff that first improves your Holy spells for a few seconds, then improves your Shadow spells for a few seconds. There are ways you can prolong the effect that buffs your main spec’s spells, and ways you can empower the other effect—in other words, a Holy priest’s Light Affinity will last longest if they cast some Shadow or Twilight spells during Void Affinity, but that Holy priest will be at their strongest briefly during Void Affinity. Contrariwise, a Shadow priest’s Void Affinity will last longest if they cast some Holy or Twilight spells during Light Affinity, but that Shadow priest will be at their strongest briefly during Light Affinity.

I won’t lie; that feels a little bit strange: creating a system that puts a priest at their strongest during a buff that’s the opposite of their spec’s flavor… On the plus side, though, this setup shows how The Light and The Void can play into each other, which sounds like the general kind of thing a Holy/Shadow tree ought to do.

There are also some Twilight spells that can benefit from and interact with this system both as a Holy spell and as a Shadow spell, including one Twilight spell that has no cooldown and can count as either a heal or a damage spell: Twilight Touch replaces Vampiric Touch for Shadow and Heal for Holy—a somewhat strange combination, but I think it can work. It’s worth adding that some of those Twilight spells are Twilight Word spells that can not only benefit from either Light Affinity or Void Affinity, but can even trigger your more powerful affinity the moment you need it.

Most of the new spells won’t contribute to spellbar bloat or rotation bloat, either, since they’re mostly replacements for your existing spells.

There’s one talent in the tree—an optional talent, mind you—that allows Shadow to heal or Holy to DPS if they want to. I try to add passives like those that allow for alternate playstyles. For that matter, there are a few places in my Archon tree where I try to give some Holy benefits to Shadow and Shadow benefits to Holy.

I like to think I did a decent job for my first try, but I won’t know for sure until I hear as much from priest players, Holy and Shadow.

You listed “Void” 6 times in your opening post.

We really need to take into consideration that “Shadow” is the highest in terms of ranking when it comes to the cosmic alignment chart.

Archon
noun

  1. each of the nine chief [magistrates] in ancient Athens.

Archon is a Greek word that means “ruler”, frequently used as the title of a specific public office. It is the masculine present participle of the verb stem αρχ-, meaning “to be first, to rule”, derived from the same root as words such as [monarch] and [hierarchy].

Essentially Archon = Ruler/Leader/highest level of authority.

Meaning when considering Holy and Shadow specs. They should be the penultima authority in their own rights. So any notion of “Void” should not even need to be considered in relation to Shadow as Void is a subset of Shadow as well as we have a “Voidweaver” Hero Talent Path already, so ANY and ALL Void verbiage and themes should belong to that tree. Shadow is more than “Void” as “Void” is just a partial piece of Shadow. Shadow has the Shadow Word spell concept, Mind/Mental concept, Vampiric / leech concept, Dark Naaru and the Dark Angelic concept (Fallen Angel… Dark Ascension).

Some posts I go into further detail concerning this “theme” or “identity crisis”

Priest - Identity crisis (Thematic)

Priest - Oracle and Archon comparison (Thematic)

Now that I have addressed the primary issue I have with your use of Naming and Theme (On the fence but leaning to not liking the Twilight naming and concept as well).

Before going into the talent tree concept you are presenting, I want to make a point about this teetertotter back and forth of Holy and Shadow alignment… it just gives off a massive callback to Balance druid Sun/Moon balancing resource system in prior expansions. From what I hear and the little I played around it myself, it was very unfun and just annoying to deal with.

I’ll look over your talent tree and if I have something to say, ill post it in a follow up post.

Tl:dr

  • Void should belong to Voidweaver, not Archon
  • Holy/Shadow teetertotter similar to balance Sun/moon balance system sounds very unfun and annoying.
2 Likes

Overall overview = Boring and barely anything is different. Just spells with different names (if that) and they just do more damage and healing.

Nothing of interest.


Each talent broken down with a brief review…

  • Oscillating Affinity (Keystone)
    You healing and damage is just more? very bland and boring.

  • Twilight Touch
    Does literally nothing. Just changes name for Holy Fire and Vampiric Touch to be the same spell. No interaction is added. At best it adds twilight damage? Again… very bland and boring.

  • Fundamental Forces
    Again, Basic spells damage/healing increased by 10% is just bland and boring.

  • Twilight Word: Scour
    Again, spell name change and healing and damage is boosted. No new interaction. Simply boring.
    (Choice)

  • Twilight Word: Nova
    Applies twilight Touch… so just like Shadow Crash now. Again, nothing new, and just bland and boring. Also it requires Twilight Touch to make any difference and you can get this before twilight touch when leveling so it will just be a wasted point until you pick up Twilight Touch.

  • Spreading Twilight
    Bland and boring again. Just adds more damage in unique edge case situation. Even if it was not unique situation, it still just adds damage. Nothing game changing. Same with Holy, just adds more healing.
    (Choice)

  • Rapid Twilight
    Very awkward spell.
    Reduces cooldown on select spells. The spell it supposedly reduces cooldown on for Shadow is Twilight Touch which is Vampiric Touch which does not have a cooldown at all. So its already worthless. The other spells it reduces cooldown on is a minor game changing effect that is very unnoticeable in most situations.

  • Amplified Oscillation
    Again, no game play changing happening. Very boring and bland. It just increases healing and damage again.

  • Twilit Affinity
    Once more, nothing interesting but increases healing/damage. No gameplay changing mechanics happening at all.

  • Voice of the Archon
    Reducing cooldown on basically you main CD spell. But that misaligns it with other cooldowns and other classes set 2 min cooldown moments making this a worse than worthless talent, its annoying in that you cant even opt out of it.

  • Cycle of the Naaru
    More boring healing/damage increase to spells. Boring and bland, nothing changes.
    (Choice)

  • Mirrored Affinities
    Boring…
    More increased damage and healing and some cooldown reduction again to same spells that are not noticeable in most cases which basically is just another version of Rapid Twilight

  • Twilit Word: Revelation (Capstone)
    More healing and damage.
    b o r i n g and b l a n d

Don’t want to come off as brutally harsh, but nothing in this entire talent tree really changes up anything that you do except I guess Mirrored Affinities allows you to Holy Nova becomes ranged spell instead of melee? Oh goodie.

I get it, its a difficult tree to put together because of the diametrically opposing nature of Holy and Shadow.

But basically EVERY talent just increasing damage and healing is NOT anywhere close to well… anything ever to be considered.

So that’s my take.

3 Likes

I’m sorry, but no one is going to read that

1 Like

I read the whole thing; Aneurysm was specific and thorough in his critiques. I, for one, respect thoroughness and specificity.

I got a lot wrong, and it’s better that I hear it than that I don’t.

You might not believe what I was aiming for with this one: I was aiming to allow Shadow to heal and Holy to DPS if they wanted to with that talent. Heck, opening the door for that off-spec activity was one of the reasons I wanted to try blending Heal and Vampiric Touch into Twilight Touch. (If I’d said “Holy Fire” then I made a mistake, but it was hardly my worst mistake!) To think that I was patting myself on the back for handing Holy some spells they could use to do damage while soloing…!

You might not believe this one, either: I was thinking somewhere between “Archon as in a powerful spirit in some real-life religions” and “Archon as in Twilight Archon from the Starcraft franchise”. I might be remembering this wrong, but I think a Twilight Archon was a templar and a dark templar merging their souls together to form a super-unit for the Protoss. The blending of light and darkness is probably what made me think that, and I was attempting to find ways to blend darkness and light. (Not exactly succeeding, though.)

I should add that, when I attempt to design hero trees, the North Star for my design is the fun-factor and making sure each talent is appealing to both specs, and I treat things like theme and flavor as secondary goals. (I know I failed at all of those things on this one.) I can tell clear you consider theme and flavor to be all-important. Personally, I think the dangers of that priority outweigh the benefits, and that’s coming from someone who’s played a paladin since Vanilla—we got the short end of the stick in terms of the fun factor when it came to class design for years and years, which is probably why I prioritize the fun factor as much as I do.

But I’m digressing so much…!

Just to be clear, what I’m about to say isn’t sarcasm at all: your critique has made me decide I’d be wiser to invest my time in things I’m good at, and clearly, designing an Archon tree isn’t one of those things. That’s useful information for me, and while not everyone on the internet thinks humble pie is a healthy dish, I do.

All that said, now I want your thoughts on my Bishop concept in another thread. I know I had to have made mistakes with that (I know what you’re thinking: “no: really???” :stuck_out_tongue: ), but I’d like to know what those mistakes were. And if there’s anyone on the Priest forums who’s willing and able to give me a thorough and specific critique, it’s you.

I already know that one of my mistakes with Bishop is making talents that are too straightforward (i.e. straight-up buffing the effects of spells with no frills), since I did that in Bishop the same way I did here. But I’d like to hear more.

In any case, thank you very much for your thorough critique. I know it took time to do all that!

Partially correct.

Twilight Archon was in fact a thing at one point. I recall the name as well. But I think that was a beta name and at some point down the line they just named it back to Archon as it was in StarCraft.

I made my own thematic ideas surrounding the StarCraft Archon with its Psionic naming and theme as it’s very similar to the Psychic and Mind/mental themes as well.

If your curious as to some ideas and gameplay changing mechanics I’ve come up with, see below…

Also I have a different direction that focuses more on the DPS side direction for Archon and by Contrast for Voidweaver in splitting the focus of your damage profile to be Non-Periodic for Archon and Periodic focused for Voidweaver.

In this post, I also include many ideas to improve the existing talent trees (class and Spec) for shadow.

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This is very reminiscent of how Boomkin was back in WoD.
Eclipse literally was on a cycle between lunar and solar that would float between the two automatically (u could have some influence with regards to delaying).

It wasn’t the most fun to play and felt more like a maintenance/chore than an engaging mechanic.

1 Like

Yeah. I’m not sure I’ll do another iteration of Archon; probably I won’t. If I do, it’ll have a different keystone, like maybe a passive where after casting a set number of Holy spells if you’re Holy or Shadow spells if you’re Shadow, you summon a mini-naaru. Maybe the idea is that you can cast spells on those mini-naaru to get some other effects or something like that.

That, at least, won’t have the klunkiness of the timed cycles. But I also worry that the mini-naaru might not appear when you need it to appear with a system like that…

Couldn’t help but think of FFXIV’s Red Mage. Or, rather, a reskin thereof…

https://youtu.be/im-Dogu55M0?si=ZI3LVXyGjasqqo8T&t=52

For now, though, from what I’m seeing, my concerns are similar to Saeshal’s. It doesn’t feel like there’s enough agency involved in the unique gimmick for said gimmick to feel good.

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I am hoping that the void reaver spec or w/e they are calling the disc/shadow hero talents is Amazing because from what I’ve seen from oracle tree I don’t wanna play it.

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Yeah, I wonder which hero talent previews they’re releasing on Friday.

As a shadow main, I wanna see what it looks like but at the same time I’m worried what it looks like.

That being said, I’ll probably prefer to see what it looks like now since they are making adjustments based on feedback.

1 Like

What I am betting on is that at least 1 talent tree will be released for Demon Hunter, Monk and Shaman and nothing for Priest.

Then this would make every class having at least 1 talent tree shown to be discussed with Priest having the only one so far being in limbo with Oracle being brought back to the devs for a rework.

Thus leaving Priests with being the only class left standing here with nothing more to say and discuss.

So… pretty much expected at this point lol.

I won’t even be upset if that happens lol. I will just laugh at how on the nose that is in terms of Priests being consistently in a troubled state when it comes to class / spec design and might once again leave Priests with a rush at the eleventh hour out the door to release with a half baked mess of ideas.

Oh man, I just can’t contain that anticipation for that very plausible outcome as it’s become the expectation and not the exception at this point haha.

Scorched earth mode is my mindset at this point haha.

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Yeah—I was attempting to make the Twilight Word spells so that they can trigger the more-powerful version of the oscillation when you chose to have it, but considering there’d need to be a lot of main-spec spells cast in order to maximize the power, I can see how it’s not that great.