I’m happy to admit I forget half the things I say, so if this is in reference to me, please remind me of when I said that I genuinely want to dismantle the Forsaken as a race.
So, this is just toxic and antagonistic.
Who’s really being malignant here?
Uh… yes, he was the Horde warchief until we deposed him and Vol’Jin got appointed.
Next.
Didn’t he split off into the True (?) Horde and barricaded himself in Orgrimmar with Kor 'Kron?
It wasn’t in reference to you - Gantrithor is referring to another thread where I argued with someone who is, again, on record multiple times for wanting the humans to take back Lordaeron, and for the Forsaken to effectively not exist as a race. When they took Lordaeron, he had no problem telling Night Elf fans over on Scrolls of Lore that their concerns didn’t matter. Anything and everything could and should have been sacrificed so that he could get what he wanted.
That is what I refer to as a malignant narcissist, and he stands as the only case I’ve met so far where compromise is literally impossible.
Surely at this moment he did not declare himself the leader of some other Horde?
Unfortunately, your proposition reads that way. Especially in the use of the word ‘backslide’ as if they got better for a hot second before just deciding its easier to just kill people. Secondly, Sylvanas is gone. There is no way to reinsert her into the Forsaken identity without making them look bad and/or stupid. Remember, we had a giant CGI cutscene where she called them (and everyone else) nothing. She fully admits to not caring about them any longer in the loyalist ending directly afterwards. Shadowlands MIGHT try and walk that back a bit, but as it stands there’s just no graceful way to keep her attached to the Forsaken story. That’s what makes their current position so ridiculous. They require… a lot of work.
Stromgarde is in a strange position as well, as Danath is the king of the kingdom and has returned to the throne. The Horde had a possible contender in Galen, which might have made a cool sub-plot, but he was evil and was killed during the DK class hall storyline. So, by all logic its back in the hands of its original rulers (Troll land btw!). With locations like Southshore canonically being rebuilt, it just makes the Forsaken look worse should they blight those poor townspeople a second time.
He actually did; Garrosh directly established what he referred to as the “True Horde.”
Which was pretty much solely about orcish supremacy, hence why both Vol’jin and Lor’themar actively rebelled against him.
Here! The Horde has attacked the Horde that has occupied their capital! To a completely different Horde! So … is it fair to say that the Horde has killed their leaders zero times?
The Forsaken are difficult to work with because one has to keep their racial fantasy in mind. It’s not completely evil, but it’s not completely good either. There’s nuance there - and so if you do something like… slot a character like Calia to “goodify” the race, you get the backlash that, well, you have received.
Regarding Sylvanas - I think the key error I made there is in the implication of the Forsaken worshipping her like a god - but that came out of some long conversations that I had with Forsaken fans, who basically convinced me that the race’s identity is completely dissolved without the Dark Lady in the middle of it. At the same time, with what they’ve done with that character, I doubt that anyone would accept her returning as an actual faction leader. That causes some pretty significant issues when it comes to the question of “fixing” the Forsaken - and I also have to admit that despite these conversations, I’m well out of my depth when I go to discuss their issues.
I think overall, the Forsaken need to be able to say "we are who we are, we are here, we’re not going anywhere, Lordaeron is ours and we have the right to do what we need to do to protect ourselves. But again, that question demands a lot of nuance that I can tell you right now I won’t nail completely the first time around.
Considering Thrall literally struck Garrosh down with a bolt of lightning?
No.
But Garrosh was the leader of another Horde. A completely different political entity, so that these words do not mean.
Velskàr, (s)he’s playing semantic games with you. Don’t bite the bait.
But jurisprudence is so beautiful! Allows you to voluntarily put your foot into a trap. Unfortunately, this works both ways. He.
Pretty much, and while I do agree with the rest of your post, it’s really this point I’d like to hone in on.
Because anyone who’s taken a Horde character through Battle for Azeroth knows there’s a quest literally titled, “To Be Forsaken,” which begins the process of Lillian Voss helping Zelling adjust to his new “life.” We even learn afterward that Voss had ensured Zelling’s (living) family was well-cared for (likely via anonymous donations and the like).
And Voss as a character goes all the way back to Cataclysm, with her refusing to accept her undeath, seeking solace and earning rejection from her former Scarlet Crusade comrades, before then straight-up murdering her own father and going on to confront Darkmaster Gandling in Scholomance.
Like, you quite literally had the best candidate for Sylvanas’ successor primed and ready, someone who has already endured the very worst of what it means “To Be Forsaken”…
…and instead, we’re meant to believe that “those poor Lordaeron zombies need to be saved from themselves by their rightful ruler, the magical Light fairy princess Calia!”
Yeah, Calia belongs in a bin. 
Voss I guess is a candidate - but I do worry that BFA has damaged her. It’s also hard to set her up as that totem of identity that Sylvanas was - and we’ve got to get into a whole series of questions about Forsaken culture which BTS introduced some serious confusion to.
I think I have a general idea of the direction in which I want to head, but this is also looking like trying to play Operation in the middle of a siezure.
No, he was the Horde warchief. Vol’Jin and company, like Saurfang, were rebel elements (of the Horde) that fought to remove Garrosh from the position of power within the Horde.
That’s why Thrall named Vol’Jin warchief after we defeated Garrosh.
Moving on from there, the Forsaken that get killed by Baine and the PC when they go to free Derrick Proudmoore were also Horde members.
Let’s admit. I will try to clarify “jurisprudence”. How many times did the Alliance have to kill characters who belonged and / or considered themselves part of the Alliance to advance the story? It seems that this wording is also imperfect, but better than … hmm. Reread your original wording. Yes, it doesn’t apply to Garrosh, but it does to Bane’s jailers. Hmm.
I’m sorry, I thought you only meant Garrosh.
This will probably sound dense - but what solution are you referencing? My comment about N’Zoth making it all a hallucination that we can accept as never being reality? I mean I will 100% agree it’s purely a cop-out (as is time-travel shenanigans) but such as it is, without undoing the damage of WoT (side note, I want it write it as War of Thrones for an obvious reference) there’s just… nothing. We’re written into a corner here.
With respect to this, I do think you’re in a smaller subset of players. You’re a PVPer on an RP Realm that is using experience from the PVE narrative to influence your PVP experience. It’s not “unique” but it is a smaller group of players. PVP generally doesn’t play a role in PVE (which is to say, that the lore from PVE doesn’t change based on PVP narratives).
With that said - hell I don’t care, have Malfurion and … pick a Horde character, we’re pretty much down to the bare bones anyway … go into the Arena and duke it out for supremacy in a highly rendered CGI fight to determine whether the Horde should be allowed to exist. Malfurion wins and then gives some merciful speech about the honor shown on the battlefield, whatever, and… I honestly don’t care.
No, I think what’s being pointed out is simply that you’ve put forth suggestions that will help solve “your” issue with the narrative, but explicitly don’t attempt to address anything else. And then in some cases, anything that could help the people who got it worse (arguably) are shot down as not providing enough for your resolution.
The Horde lost. Full stop. Everywhere. They lost the contested lands, they lost their leader, a king, a city, and basically an entire race is being deleted/rewritten. They spent the entire expansion labeled an antagonist (in the Horde playthrough) and a villain. What gains did the Horde get?
^ This is kind of frightening.
Honestly, the way Sylvanas was handled was a tragedy for a number of reasons. But Calia Menethil is disgusting to me. The Forsaken aren’t designed to be “not evil but not good” - they start off as literally a group of victims who broke free from someone controlling them into doing unspeakable horrors. Then they find that (as the Zellig quest shows, which is a gut-wrenching portrayal) they’re only seen as monsters. Not even just “Oh my green skinned aliens!” but abominations. They don’t even get to feel whole - they have limited abilities to experience positive emotions.
They’re angry because their very existence is created against their own will, then when freed they’re unable to feel positive feelings, and constantly hunted as abominations. This includes zealots like the Scarlets, but also their own races and blood. Even Anduin struggled to find folks willing to reconnect.
Then after all of that - BAM - yeah, let’s have Calia Menethil, who has experienced none of that, show us about human potential. If you can’t guess, I leveled up as an undead for the story. It’s been ruined on so many levels. I race changed (prior to all of this) due to … well … racials. Whatever, I like doing PVE.
Regarding block 1: Yes - I was referring the N’zoth plan.
Regarding block 2: I again point to the mimesis effect. I explicitly RP, but people playing an RPG in general role play to some extent, even subconsciously, therefore those concerns have an incremental impact.
For your second paragraph, I don’t want a Horde character’s scalp. Quite the opposite, I think we need to use that content to build your bench back up. I just want the onscreen victory - and I don’t care if the faction has to get its hands dirty to get it (realistically, it probably needs to get its hands dirty for the other element that we must balance - morality).
Regarding block 3: That characterization is explicitly false. I have purposely attempted to incorporate the resolution of the Horde’s relatedness issues, and have considered them. That’s why I made this thread in fact, to study the issue more and incorporate its conclusions into those suggestions. So saying that I’m explicitly not attempting to address anything else? That’s wrong.
Regarding Block 4: You lost mostly in the text when it comes to competence-related losses - with Dazar’alor being the major exception. I lost onscreen, with the failures of my side maximized for full dramatic effect while its successes were hidden away in books. As for the gain being discussed with Pellex? It’s Ashenvale - and again, I find it extremely unfair for Horde players to insist on keeping this area - one that would be critical to repairing the Night Elves as a race, on the basis that they simply don’t want to lose onscreen - especially when I’ve discussed content proposals like the ones for the Forsaken that I was just going through.