How can we redeem/rebuild the Horde?

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

I don’t agree that the Forsaken going on the warpath in Arathi is evil, and it certainly doesn’t need to be presented that way. I think you’re tacking to the idea that the Forsaken expanding their holdings is necessarily morally black - and I simply disagree on the basis of that nation’s geopolitics and understandably paranoid nature - fighting back against humans who, in my mind, would be trying to hold on to far-flung possessions that they probably don’t have much of a right to.

Perhaps I should take this as an indication to get rolling on the Arathi proposal, because I’m seeing some disconnects between what I’m envisioning and what you appear to be seeing.

Edit: I also realize that an onscreen win in Ashenvale won’t be “enough” for some people - but we do have to respect that there’s a limit here. Night Elf players cannot reasonably ask to burn down Orgrimmar, or to displace the goblins from Azshara. The desire for a big juicy win should not override other players’ investments - that was the primary sin with destroying capitols in the first place.

[Velskàr-stormrage]

@Shernish-nazjatar

@Velskàr-stormrage

Heh, you think Medivh “ordered” Thrall and Jaina to team up, or forced them to against their will?

Yes, if the Prophet had not been in the cave, they would have gnawed each other’s throats.

Which they still almost do; you’re literally arguing that Medivh forced them to work together, rather than explaining why they should.

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

@Velskàr-stormrage

…because PvP, with maybe the possible exceptions of Warsong Gulch and the Battle for Gilneas, has little to no real relevance in PvE content (read: lore) and never has?

This is straight-up PVE elitism and exclusionism. PVP has its basis in the faction rivalry that has been with the franchise since its inception

Sure, just not with regard to actual lore events like we get with PvE content, such as dungeons and raids.

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

…and that its incorporation in the lore has been mishandled is not a statement that lore can or should be handled only in PVE content

Isn’t it?

Also, I wouldn’t even say it’s been “mishandled.” PvP literally stands for “player-versus-player.” It’s not meant for complex storytelling, it’s meant for combat and fun. That’s not a bad thing, but please don’t play the whole “I’m offended and you’re elitist!” card, just because someone points out that it has no bearing on the lore.

Because it doesn’t.

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

…or that lore only affects PVE.

Except it does.

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

Again, it has a direct impact on the motivation TO PVP - to carry the flag for your team.

But only as far as the faction conflict is concerned—which, if you actually look at all the different expansions, you’ll notice has traditionally been in the background. Only Mists of Pandaria and Battle for Azeroth have really focused on the faction conflict (and subsequently, PvP war) as the main conflict taking place.

We can see how that turned out.

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

You do not get to ignore it.

I’m not ignoring anything; I’m directly stating that PvP has little to no impact on existing canon lore. It is there for fun, not storytelling.

But please, name me a single Battleground and/or Arena, with the exception of the two that I already mentioned (Warsong Gulch and the Battle of Gilneas), and with the exception of, say, the Assaults and Island Expeditions in BfA, that actually has a direct tie to the sort of content we see with existing lore (PvE), via cinematics, dungeons, Warfronts, raids, etc.

[Shernish-nazjatar]

@Velskàr-stormrage

She’s the current Lord Admiral of Kul Tiras—therefore, her kingdom’s mistakes are on her to correct. This is basic global diplomacy.

Here! I follow this logic. At least for the Horde. Somehow “later” (never) I will think about the Alliance.

[Velskàr-stormrage]

Thank you for finally admitting you’re a hypocrite.

[Zuleika-hyjal (Zuleika)]

@Shernish-nazjatar

I don’t understand this analogy. Try it differently.

I’ll spell it out for you. The assumption of guilt is built into the question, meaning that to answer it at all is to admit you are guilty. The only way to win is not to answer.

[Gantrithor-myzrael]

@Ikaar-dreadmaul

your post made no sense

You seem to think that there were no consequences for the Horde. BFA illustrates otherwise, Shadowlands illustrates otherwise, shadows Rising illustrates otherwise.

[Shernish-nazjatar]

@Velskàr-stormrage

Which they still almost do; you’re literally arguing that Medivh forced them to work together, rather than explaining why they should.

Okay, differently. He explained why they should work together, that is, Medivh was the initiator of the joint work. Not Thrall.

@Velskàr-stormrage

Thank you for finally admitting you’re a hypocrite.

Don’t worry, I know I’m a hypocrite. So Thrall had to apologize?

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

If you’re expecting a more in depth response to this, you’re not going to get it. All I see here is sneering and the use of the is/ought fallacy.

Your concerns are not automatically more valid than mine because you PVE and I PVP. Come back when you’re willing to be fair about this.

[Gantrithor-myzrael]

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

The story stopping the Horde from playing the hero isn’t dictating their ability to PVE either

How much of your own faction were you forced to kill to continue the story?

[Shernish-nazjatar]

Thanks. Then let’s go up the steps. Did Thrall admit that the First and Second Wars were evil by the Horde?

[Velskàr-stormrage]

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

If you’re expecting a more in depth response to this, you’re not going to get it. All I see here is sneering and the use of the is/ought fallacy.

You’re personally offended. Got it.

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

Your concerns are not automatically more valid than mine because you PVE and I PVP.

I don’t think I ever made this claim.

Like, ever.

Especially considering I’ve been happy to carry the flag through Warsong Gulch many times; I’ve literally won it all three carries on more than one occasion.

Didn’t you know Vengeance is one of the best flag-carrying specs?

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

Come back when you’re willing to be fair about this.

I have been more than fair.

It is you who needs to take a break until you have grown some thicker skin.

[Shernish-nazjatar]

Fandral counts?

[Gantrithor-myzrael]

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

Come back when you’re willing to be fair about this.

You dismiss how people are affected differently by the story because muh mimesis.

I don’t think you’re one to talk about fair.

[Gantrithor-myzrael]

@Shernish-nazjatar

Fandral counts?

Was he still part of the Alliance when you killed him?

[Velskàr-stormrage]

@Shernish-nazjatar

Fandral counts?

Please tell me you’re not using a minion of N’Zoth, and later Ragnaros, as an example of night elf-on-night elf violence…

[Zuleika-hyjal (Zuleika)]

I’m not falling for that. I already said the only way to win is not to answer. Bye.

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

I dismissed the desire of a person who is on record as wanting to dismantle the Forsaken as a race, and has no problem tossing anyone and everyone under the bus to get that.

I have no problem telling malignant narcissists who are unwilling to compromise to pound sand if they are giving me no other option.

[Shernish-nazjatar]

Okay, more steps. Um … can you help me? Where in the history of the Horde is the first moment that the Horde itself recognized as evil?

[Gantrithor-myzrael]

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

compromise

Your definition of compromise?

[Shernish-nazjatar]

Um … no. Was Garrosh a member of the “regular” Horde when he was killed? And what other leaders were killed at the Horde, can you tell? Sylvanas is alive, Voljin is dead of the Legion.