How can we redeem/rebuild the Horde?

I mean, it does? Literally no one has said this. But if you’re feeling “left out,” I’m happy to throw you a bone:

  1. I remember what the Night Elf Sentinels were like back in Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos. I remember how they were this army of Amazon-esque warriors, backed by spirits of nature itself, that apparently fought so fiercely that even the most battle-hardened of orc clans, the fabled Warsong tribe, famously declared, “these elves are savage!

  2. I remember reading Stormrage and Wolfheart for the first time, the latter especially demonstrating how Malfurion and Tyrande can handle diplomacy (the Alliance gathering to welcome Gilneas to their faction) just as well as they can combat (the battle down in Ashenvale, where the worgen turn the tide against Garrosh’s “secret weapons” from Northrend).

  3. I remember how the entire zone of Mt. Hyjal was all about the vaunted spirits of nature reawakening to drive back the hellish forces of Ragnaros the Firelord, with the entire questline going right up to the player character aiding Malfurion and Jace in establishing a foothold within the Firelands themselves.

I can give you example after example of how the Kaldorei used to be a badass race to play, and then got the gaming-and-lore equivalent of castration with The War of the Thorns.

So yes, one of my favorite races of all time has suffered, as well. My comments may not indicate it, but I have also been personally affected by the destruction of Teldrassil and the subsequent victimization of what has traditionally been one of the most unstoppable fighting forces on Azeroth, an army that literally has 10,000 years worth of experience on the battlefield.

Literally none of that, however, invalidates the simple fact that the Horde has still traditionally been villainized ever since Mists of Pandaria, first through Garrosh, then through the implication of Draenor that orcs are naturally-sadistic and evil, and now through Sylvanas, which again, has also completely obliterated the Forsaken’s cultural identity.

Every victim needs a villain, and vice-versa. Both the Kaldorei and the Horde have suffered.

The difference is that the Kaldorei are one race—note you don’t see as many losses incurred by the dwarves, for example, or even humanity—while the Horde is many, and each of their races has consistently been demeaned, spat upon, and ridiculed:

  • Orcs are bloodthirsty savages
  • Trolls are bloodthirsty cannibal savages
  • Tauren are brute cow-people but are soft and gentle enough to betray their own faction
  • Forsaken are genocidal, chemical weapon-spewing sadists
  • Blood elves are (surprise) sadistic mana addicts who will happily craft a WMD for the Warchief (mana bomb at Theramore) without a second thought

The list goes on and on.

…because PvP, with maybe the possible exceptions of Warsong Gulch and the Battle for Gilneas, has little to no real relevance in PvE content (read: lore) and never has?

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I don’t remember why Jaina was required to do this. Ask the person who asked it first. So did Thrall apologize or not?

This kind of logic makes it impossible for any attempt of reconciliation to look genuine. Maybe that’s the point, but it sounds like you can just destroy the entire concept of altruism by applying that kind of cynicism to it.

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Because her father slaughtered Trolls and Orcs minding their own business and ruined their lands. Because she wrongfully imprisoned and slaughtered innocent Blood Elves. Because she personally led an attack on another nation and had their king killed.

No, Thrall has no apologized. Neither has Jaina. Neither of them ever will. Why do you hold Thrall to a standard you refuse to apply to others?

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Seeing as how I don’t hold Thrall accountable for the actions of the Second war and the events before it - and that most people don’t in general - I’m confused as to why this is being raised.

@Velskar

Going after some general points here:

Literally none of that, however, invalidates the simple fact that the Horde has still traditionally been villainized ever since Mists of Pandaria

Again, I am not arguing that and never have - and this confuses me because I feel like every time I turn up to say “hey, I have issues as well, can we talk about fixing mine to”, it seems like you come out of the woodwork to carry on this show about how I need to be aware of the Horde’s problems. I am, I don’t disagree. If you agree with me that the Night Elves have issues that need to be fixed as well, then what’s the issue?

Finally…

…because PvP, with maybe the possible exceptions of Warsong Gulch and the Battle for Gilneas, has little to no real relevance in PvE content (read: lore) and never has?

This is straight-up PVE elitism and exclusionism. PVP has its basis in the faction rivalry that has been with the franchise since its inception - and that its incorporation in the lore has been mishandled is not a statement that lore can or should be handled only in PVE content, or that lore only affects PVE. Again, it has a direct impact on the motivation TO PVP - to carry the flag for your team. You do not get to ignore it.

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This is just wrong.

As in, “denied by existing canon lore” wrong.

If you really think Thrall and the Horde being at Mt. Hyjal was solely about revenge, you really need to reread Lord of the Clans and replay Reign of Chaos. It’s not a revenge story, it’s a redemption story.

Because Thrall’s Horde was not the Old Horde of Blackhand and Gul’dan?

If you really want to go this route, then I could just as easily argue that the draenei “got off easy” after leading the Legion to Draenor and getting themselves slaughtered by the orcs (who were being controlled by the Legion).

But I won’t, because guess what? That would be a racist argument that relies on the premise of “Race X (orcs, draenei, etc.) are all alike, and there are no individuals within that race.”

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I will limit the question. Did the Horde do something for the humans when Thrall became warchief to redeem the First and Second Wars?

I adhere to this standard because Velskar followed it. I consider him for the Horde, so I try to beat the Horde with the Horde’s arguments, because I don’t have mine.

I will limit the answer.

Mt. Hyjal.

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No, this was done by order of Medivh. This was not Thrall’s initiative.

I’m not “for the Horde” any more than I am “for the Alliance”—being a demon hunter gives me that luxury of being objective.

Yes, I know; rather unfortunate that I get to play as a member of a neutral faction, isn’t it?

Heh, you think Medivh “ordered” Thrall and Jaina to team up, or forced them to against their will?

Good one. :rofl:

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That question is basically “Have you stopped beating your wife?”

This complaint seems a little out of place in a thread started by you and titled “How can we redeem/rebuild the Horde?”

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Take the pandaren and don’t swim off the turtle. It will be more convincing.

Yes, if the Prophet had not been in the cave, they would have gnawed each other’s throats.

I don’t understand this analogy. Try it differently.

Let’s take a look at these 1,500 posts to look at the evolution of this thread. I don’t remember that. And you?

No, it’s not - because I regard these problems all as being linked. Just as I can’t solve my issues without considering the Horde - the same is true in reverse.

This thread was an attempt at laying out all of the issues - and we made some progress in my opinion, but I must push back against the general tendency to pursue solutions that intentionally leave whole playerbases out in the cold.

You can hardly say that people who are saying the Horde has problems are “coming out of the woodwork” when they’re coming to your thread on how to fix the Horde’s problems.

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Ask Shernish. I’m replying to her demand.

Back on topic of faction pride and those ‘big juicy W’s’, I think the big issue you’re coming across here is that idea of loss Horde-side. We’ve lost characters, spirit, pride, and direction. The issue with Ashenvale as that W for the NE in response to Teldrassil is that… You won’t find many who consider that a big W. To many of us, the Tree was the beginning of a VERY bad time. It’s not very fair compensation and comes off more as punishment for being evil jerks again.

If you want to go down that path, you need to give the Horde some W’s of their own. And not just ones that go “Oh, hey you didn’t die! That’s a win!”.

Looking over your propositions for battlegrounds, I couldn’t help but notice the Alliance is still the one with all the motivation with the sole exception of the Trolls banding together. The Humans get to shake their fist and go back to battle against those devious and rowdy Trolls and Undead who just need to know their place, while the NE get to punk the Kalimdor Horde in a big phat win.

Arathi in particular is where I think you failed here. Because Blizz gave that win to the Alliance you had the Forsaken simply go on the warpath because they’re evil and they can, which is just… BFA all over again. So with that in mind, I’d love to hear your idea of a ‘Big juicy W’ for the Horde (Or even just the Forsaken) to get a conversation started there.

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The problem of the night elves can be solved, I am not solving the problem of the Horde - to kill the Horde with the night elves. Take it. The problem of the Horde is more difficult, it requires great evil and the absence of the Alliance. Let the Horde defeat itself this time, without the Alliance?

I bring it up because Velskar raised it.