How can we redeem/rebuild the Horde?

[Gantrithor-myzrael]

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

then you’re going to have to explain first why Horde players being demotivated by the story IS valid, but when it happens to other people it is not.

Can you show me where Horde players are complaining about the story insofar as their ability to do PvP is?

[Ikaar-dreadmaul]

As soon as Sylvanas left the entire Horde got off scott free with the Alliance basically going “Ok bad person gone now, everyone pack up and go home”, even her loyalists were forgiven.

[Gantrithor-myzrael]

@Ikaar-dreadmaul

got off scott free

BFA: inconsequential for the Horde.

• Alliance player

[Velskàr-stormrage]

@Morghel-daggerspine

@Velskàr-stormrage

I’m sure they would have, if they had been physically able to.

They have been able to do so for years, ever since they founded Orgrimmar.
And do you know how much regret Orgrim displayed for everything he has done? Absolutely nothing. Getting killed by a lance was far too good of a death for him.

So, this tells you care more about revenge than justice—I might even suggest you’re RPing your Gilnean character a bit too much.

One of the reasons Reign of Chaos was so noteworthy is because Thrall’s Horde did prove themselves noble, did prove themselves worthy, by atoning for their sins through fighting alongside the Alliance at Mt. Hyjal. That was their atonement, which is why Jaina defends them against her father in “Old Hatreds.”

That was literally the whole point of Reign of Chaos:
That Thrall’s Horde =/= Blackhand’s/Gul’dan’s/Doomhammer’s Horde.

[Shernish-nazjatar]

Here you see? You know that you are not fighting in vain! The night elves don’t know this. They know they will die.

[Shernish-nazjatar]

So Thrall has apologized for the orcs’ actions or not?

[Micâh-moon-guard]

And he actually thinks the sylvanas loyalists got off scot free to. Ignoring most were caught and killed I believe.

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

As I’ve stated many many times, Horde issues and Alliance issues are different. Mine are wrapped up in perceived competence. The Horde’s are wrapped up in relatedness.

This thread contains page after page of Horde players documenting their lack of motivation to play the game due to the story’s decisions to portray the Horde in the moral light that it did. Pellex not long ago was telling us about how he nearly quit over it. I know quite a few people who DID quit over it. The no-shoulder movement exists, widespread Horde discontentment exists.

I have no issue with regarding that as a valid phenomena that we need to fix.

What mystifies me is this implication that demoralization doesn’t happen outside the Horde. But I also demand consistent standards, so, unless you would like to tell me that everything I laid out about the Horde is just not valid and something we shouldn’t care about because it’s not affecting them in PVE, then I don’t see why it’s so hard to respect the effects of demoralization on the desire to PVP.

[Gantrithor-myzrael]

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

But I also demand consistent standards, so, unless you would like to tell me that everything I laid out about the Horde is just not valid and something we shouldn’t care about because it’s not affecting them in PVE, then I don’t see why it’s so hard to respect the effects of demoralization on the desire to PVP.

The story is stopping Horde from playing the hero. It is literally telling Horde you are not the hero.

The story does not dictate your ability to kill the opposite faction in PvP. Nor does the outcome of an arena match or bg affect the story in any way.

Being “feared” in pvp has zero to do with the story and everything to do with personal skill.

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

The story stopping the Horde from playing the hero isn’t dictating their ability to PVE either. Tyrande is not stopping them from killing a raid boss and giving them a moral lecture instead.

But again, we both know that’s not what we’re talking about when we discuss motivation.

[Shernish-nazjatar]

History prevents the Nelves from being heroes. She literally tells them that they are the victim.
The story doesn’t require you to be able to kill the opposing faction in PvP. Neither the outcome of the match in the arena, nor BG do not affect the plot in any way.

[Azighan-thrall]

Dunno. Has Tyrande apologized for the destruction of the Troll Empires?

Has Jaina apologized for the death of Rastakhan, the Purge of Dalaran, or the deforestation of Durotar by her father?

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

Getting off topic, but can you tell me how many troll empires Tyrande or the current Night Elf government has destroyed?

[Azighan-thrall]

Depends. How many Human Cities did Thrall or the current Horde government burn down during the First and Second War?

That’s my point.

[Shernish-nazjatar]

So did Thrall apologize? Has the Horde apologized?
I will ignore the events of BFA.
Did the Horde apologize for the First and Second Wars?
I will ignore the events of BFA.
About the forest … I don’t know. This is not a war. It seems to be. For the attack, it would probably be worth it. True, I have not read books and do not remember the events of the campaign exactly. Only very large strokes.

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

Huh? What does it depend on? Does the number of troll empires Tyrande or the current Night Elf government destroyed change according to … what, the accounting framework you’re using to figure the total?

Just tell me if capital leases are involved.

[Morghel-daggerspine]

@Velskàr-stormrage

So, this tells you care more about revenge than justice

Not really, but Orgrim never showed any regret for any of his actions, not an ounce. And he was almost as much of a monster as blackhand. He razed Stormwind to the ground, along with who knows how many of it’s citizens. He never felt regret for that, nor did he try to atone for it. He remained an orc supremacist until the end, and the fact that he had a city named after him shows how much the Horde learned from those wars.

@Velskàr-stormrage

One of the reasons Reign of Chaos was so noteworthy is because Thrall’s Horde did prove themselves noble, did prove themselves worthy, by atoning for their sins through fighting alongside the Alliance at Mt. Hyjal. That was their atonement

Not really. The question is not “can the Horde fight?”. We already know they can.
The question is, “can the Horde live in peace with the Alliance?”. And they have consistently proven that they cannot, and that when backed against a wall, imaginary or otherwise, they will allways resort to violence. That is something the Horde will have to change.

Even if we agreed that the Horde atoned for all their misdeeds by fighting at Hyjal, which is of course bollocks, they have once again proven themselves no better than the old Horde.

[Shernish-nazjatar]

So, I no longer remember why it went, but there seemed to be a demand from someone to make the Alliance apologize for something bad in relation to the Horde, despite the fact that the government was changed. Have you seen anything like it anywhere?

Edit. Remembered! Jaina must apologize for attacking Proudmoore because she became Lord Admiral of Kul Tiras!
Did the Horde apologize for the First and Second Wars?

[Ikaar-dreadmaul]

@Gantrithor-myzrael

BFA: inconsequential for the Horde.

• Alliance player

Ok I don’t know if you’re attempting to be funny or something but your post made no sense

@Velskàr-stormrage

One of the reasons Reign of Chaos was so noteworthy is because Thrall’s Horde did prove themselves noble, did prove themselves worthy, by atoning for their sins through fighting alongside the Alliance at Mt. Hyjal. That was their atonement, which is why Jaina defends them against her father in “Old Hatreds.”

That…is basically nothing, I mean the Legion screwed them so they’re basically getting revenge, it doesn’t bring back all the people they slaughtered even before they drank the demon blood.

And can someone tell me why it’s ‘wrong’ for Dealin to be hunting the Orcs down after they escaped their camps? I mean, the Orcs basically committed mass genocide/murder and served a 20 year sentence before escaping, truth be told the Orcs got off easy.

@Azighan-thrall

Dunno. Has Tyrande apologized for the destruction of the Troll Empires?

Apologised for her people only conquering Troll territory when the Trolls attacked first?

@Azighan-thrall

Has Jaina apologized for the death of Rastakhan

How about the Zandalari apologise for helping out the Horde despite them fighting a war of extermination against the Alliance?

@Azighan-thrall

the Purge of Dalaran

The Blood Elves actually apologised for the purge of Dalaran seeing as it’s their fault it even happened.

@Azighan-thrall

or the deforestation of Durotar by her father?

Again, why do these Orcs who have killed innocents get to live out their days in freedom when they should by all rights be locked up till death?

[Azighan-thrall]

No he didn’t. Why should he? Did Tyrande apologize for Azshara’s actions against the Trolls? Did Jaina apologize for her fathers actions? Did the Draenei apologize for bringing the Burning Legion to the Orcs?

It cuts both ways.

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

Huh? What does it depend on? Does the number of troll empires Tyrande or the current Night Elf government destroyed change according to … what, the accounting framework you’re using to figure the total?

Thrall wasn’t even born yet and is being held accountable by some for the actions of those who came before him during the First and Second War. Tyrande may or may not have been born yet during the expansion of the Kal’dorei empire, yet she shouldn’t be held accountable for the actions of her predecessor in Azshara?

That’s silly.