Warsong Hold really ain’t that different man. It’s also too small to be a city. It’s a fort. I’ll take Garrosh-era Org any day.
So the Vrykul, Blue Dragons, Nerubians, Earthen, Wolvar, Tuskarr, and Gorlocs don’t? Because it’s the same deal. And yes, the Echo Isles are Darkspear land. Nothing lived there before them and were completely unclaimed. Asking Jungle Trolls to live in a Frozen wasteland is… yeah.
Who cares? Thunder Bluff is their home NOW. The Taunka are staunch allies, but the Tauren should be allowed to hold the lands they roamed for years.
According to Lilian they’re already looking into cleaning it up so they can move back in. So no, Lordaeron is not gone. As for their numbers… Necromancy taught by Hecular.
So the Blood Elves accept that and just leave? That’s ridiculous. That would be war.
And what story development would the Horde have in our new corner of the world? What guarantee is there that we won’t just be tacked onto the Alliance stories anyways once this is all over or even during that very expansion?
I apologize if I sound aggressive, but I cannot agree to a plan that upends everything we’ve worked for just so the Alliance can have all our stuff while we get the faint promise of ‘development’.
Meh, I say allow the Horde to expand and retract control in certain areas based on natural geographic borders. Rather that something dumb like “number of zones”. That’s really arbitrary and kind of petty.
So on EK, the Horde gives up all claims to Hillsbrad, Southern SP (south of the Sepulcher), and Gilneas. The EK Horde picks up full political dominion over Alterac, Hinterlands, and the Plaguelands. Using the Alterac/Hinterlands Range as our Southern Border. And the Alliance’s Northern one. Gifting the prior Scarlet Enclave and securing their Hinterlands to start building bridges with the Forest Trolls. Uniting their Southern Holdings in the HLs with ZulMashar and ZulAman in the north.
As for Kali. The Horde (and Steamwheedle) gets the hell out completely of Hyjal, Winterspring, Moonglade, Felwood, Ashenvale, and Darkshore. With no attempt to ever enter them again without permission. We then destroy the Goblin made pathway into Ashenvale from Stonetalon, and take control of that zone, Desolace, and parts of Feralas. Dustwallow, Thousand Needles, Tanaris, and Ungoro are all natural pickups as Bilgewater and Darkspear interests lie down there in Gadgetzan and Zul Farrak.
In short, the Kali Alliance holds the top 3rd of Kalimdor. The Kali Horde holds much of the bottom 2/3rds. Using the Southern Ashenvale range as the geographic and political dividing line. The EK Horde holds the top 3rd of EK. The EK Alliance holds the bottom 2/3rds. Same deal, using the Alterac/Hinterlands range for geographic/political boundaries and defense. There is some minor shifting around required (except for Aerie Peak … and again they can get Grim Batol back), but the end result is lots of growing space, essential resources, and easily defined DEFENSABLE borders to keep everyone out of everyone’s hair.
Its the argument the Horde have used for invading the Night elves land since landing in Kalimdor.
Honestly I think the Tauren might be one if the first races to take the chance at moving to a new land if it meant keeping the rest of the Horde out of conflict with the Night elves.
Sorry, that was someone elses suggestion. I meant they should build a new capital somewhere else and not use the same spikey design all Garrosh buildings had.
I suggested Shalozar Basin.
The reason I suggest this alot of this thread I can see the Horde players lamenting that there is no way to fix their story. They don’t want to be the bad guys, they don’t want Alliance Heroes in their ranks, They want to be shown as Honorable savages and not be villain batted again. This is one way I can see them resolving a lot of these issues and giving the writers the proper staging point for writing the new Horde stories far away from the Alliance. Rather than solely focused on the few characters that get along with the Alliance(baine, thrall and calia).
Northrend is a untamed land that is reminiscent of the homeland the Frostwolves hail from. Still has a decent amount of mysteries that haven’t been explored . The Native races could either find themselves at odds or becoming members of the horde. The important thing is anything the Alliance does would be purely seen as purely aggressive after the Horde had made such a gesture of moving far away from them.
The benefit of this change isn’t a “Promise” of development but actual development showing the growing of a new horde Nation purely focus of their hardships and trials of building a new home.
My response applies to both “movin on up” to Northrend and flipping zones like hot potatoes:
Given Teldrassil, what does this fix?
If I were part of the alliance and the horde moved to northrend I would still be very concerned that would just become the newest staging ground for the next atrocity.
Even if we shift defensive positions to allow for natural defensive boundaries … what changes? We have friggin air ships and boats and that’s not even counting space ships.
I think we would need a rather convenient sundering - break Kalimdor into northern and southern regions that float far apart. Then somehow the northern part of EK also floats toward that southern part of Kali… and then … the Horde is still painted as a genocidal monster that is ready for the next round of villain batting.
at least we are all rounded up in one spot for our scolding and/or genocide.
Because the problem is the story has painted us into the corner of never being trustworthy, always being on the wrong side, and committing unjustifiably heinous actions.
Edit because I missed it - stop with the friggin noble savage trope.
We would have to physically go back in time to unscrew the story, the damage is too great and the story will keep moving like a headless chicken, hell the chicken was dead long ago, it was revived with necromancy and told to keep walking.
The difference is that is shows the Horde has actually changed rather than this vague promise they have. The fact they willingly give up the Homes to move to a new land to show that dedication to that change.
Its better than the Alternative of sitting the the night elves doorstep and asking for a fight next time they mess up.
Sure they will always wear the crimes of the past but atleast it moves them away and give them a fresh start.
I have one other. I also don’t think it would fly in a two-faction game, but if we’re just focusing on the sole question of how to redeem/rebuild the Horde, here goes.
The Horde does some huge good thing–like, “saving all of Azeroth” level of huge–that, for whatever reason, the Alliance cannot do. That would move the Horde from “just plain worse than the Alliance in every way” to “Well, they hit the highest heights and the lowest depths.” But it won’t work if it’s something the Alliance could just as easily have done, or that requires both factions to work together in order to achieve it.
I can’t see how to make that storyline work in a two-faction MMO.
I don’t see how any Horde player would ever accept this though.
Ever. You’re asking them to simply discard the area that they have, since 2004 been told is the heartland of the Horde. I agree that the Night Elves should hold their own, but you can’t tell me that after that much player investment that people are just going to let it go willingly.
We certainly didn’t with Teldrassil, so may we desist with proposals that are doomed to this kind of failure?
I think it could work, eve if the factions are working together, if they let Horde leaders and organizations take the lead.
Imagine Legion, but instead of visiting the ancestral home of the Night Elves, basing it out of the mostly Human Dalaran, focusing so much on Illidan, Tyrande, Tueaulyon and working with the mostly Alliance led organizations, we have a world threat that has everyone visiting the ancestral home of the Orcs/Trolls/Tauren/Goblins, focuses on characters like Eitrigg, Rokhan, Baine, and Gazlowe, and has us working with neutral organizations like the Earthen Ring, Tinker’s League, and Steamwheedle cartel. Characters and factions that could use the development.
And toss in some stuff for Alliance races that could use some more history and relevance to the main plot, like Dwarves, Gnomes and Worgen.
I personally think a Kezan focused expansion could potentially do just that. I’ve never been much of a fan of the push to make Steamwheedle and other Goblin organizations has wholly synonymous with Horde just because Bilgewater has goblins, when Goblins as a whole have been as independent from the factions as Dalaran, the Argent Crusade, the Cenarion Circle or the Cenarion Circle.
No Im not saying they are just going to “accept it” not without some significant good writing and proper development. I’m sure Horde players would warm to the Idea if it meant they got some focused development of the Horde that spoke to the player base Whether that be through novels, Comics or even a Expac dedicated to it.
I’m sure the Horde would prefer some development that didn’t revolve with them getting preached to by Anduin while Baine and Thrall are prostrated before him or having Undead alliance princesses forced on them. Im also sure they would hate getting butchered by some violent Alliance attack so the alliance gets some “grey”. As others have pointed out there would need to be that much blood on the Alliances to bring them to the hordes level that there wouldn’t be much horde left at the end of it.
Half the Problem with the Night elf story that it was dropped completely dropped part way through the story leaving them hanging with no resolution.
It’s not just that it was dropped, it was that it was completely humiliating to us - and losing that territory is a huge part of that.
So, taking that concept to the Horde - you mentioned good writing and proper development. What does that look like? How do you get Horde players to feel good about that?
I honestly don’t see any amount of good writing to make that move palatable, it reeks of thralls motivations for moving into durotar as penance. Also there’s too much attachment to the hordes land holdings, I would hate to see orgrimmar lost or thunderbluff, and after it got revamped the echo isles. There’s just been so much story in those areas.
By showing the Horde made the choice to leave firstly, not forced away by the Alliance. Maybe leaving just a message for them not to come after them as they would retaliate.
Second show the horde landing on Northrend adapting and overcoming the challenges the new environment delivers. Show how the Horde is good in the harsh environments and how they prosper in these new zones. Each race tackling different environs and building new capitals.
Thirdly Develop exisiting characters and develop them completely away from the Alliance. Have the interact peacfully with the Locals and save/protect them. Have them be intelligent charcters who have unique skills that work well with the challenges in Northrend.
Okay so that would lead to a similar backlash as Baine saying Turajo was a valid military target, your option lacks alliance pushing horde out but it paints the horde as doing this for the alliance benefit over the hordes and its citizens.
Alright, fair enough. I have a couple of follow-up questions in that case.
How do you convince Horde players that they are, even if the Alliance isn’t technically forcing them to leave, retreating from the Alliance on the basis of that faction’s pressure, or the pressure of the playerbase to remove the Horde as a force pressing on Alliance territories?
What do you tell the players who say “but I liked Orgrimmar and the Barrens and Durotar? I quested there - I have strong memories of those places”?
Not really, The Orcs are already based in a terrible situation where they are starved for resources in their own territories that they cannot resolve without invading their neighbors or relying on the Tauren for water. They are also sitting on the border with the one race that would happily see all orcs dead atm.
Trolls might be better offer but they wouldn’t beable to hold the island without the rest of the support of the Horde.
The forsaken’s home is gone and they have no way of reproducing currently.
Tauren might be fine however being Nomadic and wanting not abandon their allies they would probably be happy to pack up and move on.
Simply have the Horde come to the decision themselves, Simply make it seem like durotar is no longer viable, they have already half done it with previous writing with it being so hot in the city that its like a giant fry pan also relying on the tauren for water. What is so difficult about that?
Phasing, Classic. It is all still there yet now they will get brand new capitals instead of the old cities designed back in classic.
