Well, their growth (along with Voss, Rokhan, Gazlowe, etc) will be heavily tied into whats going on back home. So … yes? We’ll see what Blizz does with those forced to hold down the fort in our absence.
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One area I will push back on regarding this is that you appear to have a lot of focus on the major characters - and I think that this has been one of WoW’s greatest failings as an MMO - that rather than focusing on telling us more about the world and the cultures that inhabit it, they have instead focused on a narrow cast of favored characters that often don’t represent the playable races that they belong to. I see this as creating problems for relatability. If I (if I were a hypothetical Horde player) can’t identify with the average, ordinary people on the ground because the story sees them as extras, then why would I feel motivated to protect them?
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Kyalin pretty clearly separated the Meta from the In Universe.
Concerning players:
Concerning the Alliance as an entity within the Universe:
True, but that goes back to the original Warcraft III games, when the “narrow cast of characters” was the main cast: Thrall, Cairne, Baine, Vol’Jin, Rexxar, Sylvanas, Jaina, Muradin, Malfurion, Tyrande, Maiev, and Shandris as faction leaders all date back to the RTS games.
Which was fine when they were the main playable characters, but I agree that it is a bit of a rough transition into an MMO.
Because now the playable characters are us, the originally-unnamed Footmen, Grunts, Ghouls, Archers, etc.
“Ready to work!”
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Warcraft 3 was an RTS though, not an MMO. Those are different mediums with different requirements.
Which is why I said
Because those units in Warcraft III didn’t have agency; they were just soldiers to be ordered around (“Arrows in her quiver”). Now, they do have agency, through us, the players.
And I do think we’re more recently seeing the inevitable fallout of that, when we players are now expected to just “go along with” whatever new big plan our leaders come up with, even it is imbalanced/biased more against the Horde (Theramore, Teldrassil).
There is an issue with that as well, but one issue at a time. At this moment, the Horde player finds themselves ostracized and disconnected by even the remaining characters we are supposed to feel connected to. Thrall is guilted back into the Horde. Baine has become an accessory for Anduin. Vol’jin’s story has been so gated few players will ever experience it. The reps everywhere else are a mass of underdeveloped, underused, and frankly underpowered souls. They will need work too.
Like it or not, WoW is a game of Heroes right now, and the Horde has very few to represent us. We can argue that over focus on Heroes needs to change, but honestly … the Horde has always sort of been more defined by our characters than even the Alliance. Even back in WC3. So, while giving us racial stories that pad out our races, cultures, and supporting characters would be ideal … we do need Primary Characters worthy of supporting built up first. And the SLs reps are the most likely choices.
BfA has left us in the situation where we are starting from square one here Kyalin. That means WC3 methods. If Saurfang is to be our new, better Doomhammer and Grom, then we need standout characters who can embody that will enough to allow everything around them to grow first. Thats just how it is.
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Having preliminarily looked at the search interest in characters like Thrall and comparing them to Alliance characters like Tyrande - I suppose I see what you mean. I haven’t done a full study and comparison, but so far it looks as though the Horde characters from the RTS were far more memorable and drew far more interest than the Alliance ones, except perhaps for Jaina. Although again, this is a study that I need to actually complete prior to commenting much further on it.
That said, fair enough.
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Its why Thrall’s abandonment of the Horde and being guilted back into it hurt so much as a Horde player. Its why Cairne’s death in an offscreen book was so abysmal for us Horde fans. Its why Vol’jin death at the hands of trashmob after being allowed to do nothing the Warchief was recieved so negatively. And … I would guess, its why the path they chose to take Sylvanas down brought so much pain for the Forsaken playerbase. Baine being turned into a plot device of Horde goodness, and no efforts by Blizz to tangibly replace who and what we’ve lost … is just icing on the cake of the Horde crumbling.
Yes, the races and cultures of the Horde are very important. And desperately (like the individual races and cultures of the Alliance) need love and TLC. But, for the Horde Faction, we’ve always been more defined by our characters. In part, because we didn’t have much else at the start. Most of our peoples are broken refugees who will never be able to return to who (or where) they came from. Which is perhaps why “destroying our stuff” for Horde characters rings a bit less impactful than it does for Alliance players. While destroying our characters hurts a bit more. Our characters were all we really had.
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Regarding destroying Horde stuff - my proposals generally center around trying to build Horde investment in something that the Alliance would threaten - with the Horde stopping what was being planned. I don’t really agree with the idea of pain being a great motivator because I know how that went down with the Night Elves and our playable experience.
So, let’s dive into this - especially in a post-BFA environment - because I explore this question in connection with standing up a balanced rivalry - something where the Alliance would likely be making aggressive moves that the Horde must arrest or counter. How do we go about building up these characters in reaction to that while also repairing some of the damage done to the Horde’s image in the eyes of its playerbase?
The only way you can. Give them character arcs, even small ones, devoted exclusively to their own characterization needs. Rather than the stories needs for them coming first.
Baine is the biggest example of this, with his character needs always been shuffled aside for him to serve as a Token-Good Horde Plot-Device to offset Blizz having their fun with a Horde despot. He needs to be allowed to develop independent of Anduin, and get to a point where he finds his Father’s balance between knowing when to sacrifice for peace … and when force is required. Him being friends with Anduin and Jaina is fine, but he must have established boundaries. It would also be nice if he got some sort of power boost? Having the apparent “Best and Heart” of the Horde be discarded as worthless was not fun.
Thrall just needs to find a path to taking Pride in who and what he was born to be again. He’s the son of Durotan, Chieften of the Frostwolves. He’s the hope of Grom and Doomhammer, Chieftens of the Warsong and Blackrock. He was friend to Cairne and Vol’jin. He was Thrall, founder of the Horde. And yet, he is also a Go’el. And despite that being his given name, and Thrall his slave name … Go’el has been received as a mopey coward who gave into nepotism and forced a Warmonger into the drivers seat. Then abandoned us. Thrall needs to be both selves, and both need a positive portrayal.
Vol’jin just needs some tangible resolution to his already established Arc in SLs, and while Rokhan is chieften of the Darkspear … Vol’jin’s new existence needs to be tied into Sen’jin’s prophecy. That Vol’jin will be key to leading ALL of Troll Kind (not just the Darkspear) to a brighter future. And we can go from there…
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And as an addendum (since my post is already fairly chunky) building up these characters this way isn’t really about making them more palatable, but what building them into the people they need to be for their people will mean. Thrall for the marred and shackled MU Orcs. Baine for the scattered Kalimdor Tauren. Vol’jin for a Troll people after 10k years of decline. What Voss AND Calia need to become for the Forsaken of Lordaeron. While the races themselves should always be given attention and a supporting case, the right leader provides the idea of a brighter future for their people. Because they are led by strong individuals who at their core, truly care about their wellbeing.
Its why, in part, I am such a fan of Gazlowe as the new Trade Prince. Even though I know the Goblins will always be a supporting race and wont get a lot of attention, what it means to finally have a leader (as underdeveloped as he still is) who represents the best of the race he leads (while still embracing the flaws that make them Goblins) is hard to put into words. Wix only represented our worst, so the race he led was only allowed to be its worst. But within a game like WoW, having a leader that represents our best? Then we might actually have a chance at being our best. And we can be built up. Flaws and all.
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I kinda of want to build on this train of thought, as Droite only covered 3 of the 4 faces of the Horde that are in shambles. Before then, I want to add that while Vol’jin should absolutely continue to influence the story and fulfill Sen’jin’s vision of bringing Trollkind together, he should not overshadow either Talanji nor Rokhan. Rokhan in particular really needs an arc or two, which can and should include Vol’jin, to develop him as a character and a leader. He needs it. Badly.
The final face of the Horde that needs work is the Forsaken. Sylvanas was more than just the face of the race, she was an integral part of the racial identity regardless what kind of Forsaken you imagined yourself to be. Having her ripped from it has left a gaping hole in what they were and will be felt no matter how hard Blizz tries to patch it up (“Dark Lady watch over you.”, “Victory for Sylvanas!”). Yet despite how important she was to that racial identity, Blizzard didn’t even care enough to build up a culture to survive beyond her or even take the time to reasonably build up a replacement. Lilian and Calia desperately need to be shown interacting with the Forsaken people and defending their interests and also need arcs to describe what this new vision for the Forsaken should look like. This isn’t just new management, it’s a cultural upheaval that needs to be addressed.
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I also think that the one good thing that came from BtS needs to be expanded upon. The idea of a dual-identity for the Undead of Lordaeron. A concept that if built on, can allow Calia to truly flourish and work (though I do think she needs to have a motive to create a healthy distance from the Alliance too).
BtS exhibited two identities for the Forsaken, and a massive spectrum in between. Those that, if allowed, would reclaim as much of their lives and identities they had in life that they could. And those who have more fully embraced their new Forsaken identities and lives. There is also the majority of those in between. And while the latter group was manipulated by Sylvie for her own machinations, it is not inherently a bad identity. As its largely defined by those who don’t have enough of their old lives to return to; so for their own sanity and survival had to rebuild themselves into someone new.
Calia (if built right) can facilitate the Citizens of Lordaeron side of their identity. Voss (if built right) can facilitate the Forsaken side. Two counterbalancing, equal leaders that facilitate and support that entire identity spectrum. In a positive (leaders who care for them) way. Then all we need to really do is once the Jailor’s influence is fully gone from the Scourge, allow the Forsaken to get back to basics. Finding those minds that can still be saved from that nearly endless mass … and putting in the work to save them. And harvesting those that are too far gone for their maintenance needs.
Its a very quiet, noble, and thematic way for them to stabilize and grow their peoples.
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I agree with most of this, but a big sticking point is Calia, of course. In her current state she remains the antithesis of the Forsaken as a people in almost every way possibly imaginable with the sole exception of being from Lordaeron. As a wielder of the Light and advocate of ‘fixing’ undead through therapy and the power of friendship and positive thinking, she simply comes off as tone-deaf to the original concept of the Forsaken.
Posts have come and gone discussing how to make her palatable, with the most agreed on aspect being that she needs to change for her people, not have her people change for her. In particular, she needs to become Forsaken in some way. Make her go through a fraction of the pain other Forsaken have gone through and let the Forsaken player base see it. Her family is actually the best answer here. Her lover and child survived, she finds them, they reject her as a monster.
Boom. Instant Forsaken experience, echoing what we saw from Zelling despite her intentions and solidifies that the Gathering was an exception to Undead/Living relations, not the rule. She can keep her mostly positive outlook afterwards, but should begin to darken her outlook of the living and drift from the Alliance. Maybe pick up some shadow magic while she’s at it.
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See, this is certainly possible.
Especially tying her into her current connection to reuniting Bolvar and Taelia. A family member who DID accept their far more monstrous looking “Undead?” Father back. In fact, there is that underlying drive for her to find them. She did not find them within the Forsaken ranks, and I’d wager that is why she is in the Shadowlands now. But, she will not find them. They survived. And they, being front and center to the Plague of Undeath (and that DEEP trauma that comes with it), will reject her for what she is. I think you are right that that would be a good developmental point for her as a character to help her bridge one of the gaps she has with her people. She does need to change for them, even if her influence can help them change too down the road. And in the meantime, I do think Voss needs to be instrumental in all of that.
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I haven’t had a moment to fully read the link but thank you for sharing it and I will read it soon. I also appreciate (as ever) the civility you show with respect to these topics.
Re-reading my post I felt it came across a bit antagonistic and it was not my intention for it to be so and I am glad you didn’t take it as such (or at least if you did take it as such, you were polite enough to not respond with hostility).
Reasonable discussion and even disagreement doesn’t have to engender bad blood and across numerous threads you have shown that. I want to thank you for that. It’s very much appreciated.
She’s not going to, that would be out of her character, i dislike how they inserted calia as a “not forsaken” forsaken, however i believe her character is there to stay as a naive optimist at least for a while, just look at anduin ffs… NOW after all this time is that he got some kind of “dark” development, i cant fathom they putting calia on the reins of the forsaken just to give her shadow powers, that was sylvanas’ schtick.
if anything she would do a good contrast vs a more ruthless forsaken character.
i bet she’s also not getting any forsaken developments since we’re in the shadowlands, that means arthas so any development would be along those lines, which sucks since that time couldve been used to develop the forsaken as a whole not the new postergirl.
in any case it would be better to kill her then put someone else that does a better representation.
Hello Zarrin,
I don’t feel that it came off as antagonistic at all, and I absolutely appreciate the willingness on your part to engage on a subject like this. As I said, I hope my write-up provides a bit of context for why I believe the way I do on this, and I look forward to further conversation about it.
Regarding some of your comments - one thing that I noticed is that a lot of your comments had to do with how some of those elements could apply to the Alliance as well - which I don’t think means that they don’t apply to the Horde.
I disagreed on 4 not on the success of that part of the ideology to keep the Horde from fracturing, but on the attitudes that Horde leadership tends to apply to those who disagree with the Warchief. Both Garrosh and Sylvanas tried to kill and/or silence domestic opposition. These methods just failed. Regarding Baine and Thrall in particular (Despite their contributions, the Blood Elves and the Nightborne haven’t had an outsized cultural effect on the Horde and its governing philosophy) - Thrall was trying to build a culture that moved away from the one that it backslid into.
I think the other points are addressed by the post, past that.
I will add - the thing that got me thinking in these terms originally was the 1943 Disney Propaganda film: Education for Death, and in particular: the classroom scene. I see a lot of the worst parts of the Horde ideology expressed in that - notably those presented during MOP. I do want to add again that I think it’s a travesty that I can even make such comparisons - I don’t take pleasure in it. I don’t see it as an item to gloat about. I see it as something that ought to be fixed - and I in particular am enjoying sitting back and watching the current conversation about how we may do precisely that.
I read through your post and I thought it was well-reasoned and understandable. There were 3 points that stuck out to me (and you actually made comments about two of them).
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I referenced the Alliance in my comments, mostly as a point of comparison due to the fact that we’re “inside” a video game. The environment is artificial and some aspects are constructs due to it being a video game. I do believe the Horde can be evaluated in terms of fascism without considering the Alliance, except to the extent that there are aspects that exist within both solely to serve the purpose of a video game. I won’t claim that it makes a faction more or less fascist - just that it does provide some context.
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You don’t believe 1, 2, 11, 12, and 14 apply to the Horde in general (though you do attribute 12 to Orcs). Most of your remaining examples derive primarily from Garrosh (3, 6, 7, 8, 10, and 13). For 4 you reference Garrosh but also reference Sylvanas’ actions toward folks that are actively trying to undermine her leadership and work with her enemy (so I disagree). Garrosh is a clear example (“The Eyes of Hellscream Are Upon You”) but Sylvanas is reacting to actual traitorous elements. For 9 you initially offer up Orcs but add a reference to part of “A Good War” (I don’t have the book so I’m not sure what is actually said). 5 also references a portion of that book.
So out of the 14 descriptions: 4 you state don’t apply; 1 you state isn’t true of the Horde overall, but that changes when you consider Orcs; 6 you give examples from Garrosh/MoP; 1 I disagree with your application of Sylvanas and agree with Garrosh (which would make 7 based on him); 1 example is based partly on Orc’s and a section of a book I can’t reference sadly; 1 example is taken directly from that book.
From that, I would offer the suggestion that it seems that Garrosh was a fascist. In fact, Garrosh was portrayed as such a fascist that it splintered the Horde to the point where there was a Siege of Orgrimmar with the forces of Thrall’s Horde (notably including Thrall) against Garrosh’s True Horde. He was a xenophobic war criminal.
- For a number of examples, Orcs seem to be a driving force, but the Horde is clearly not just Orcs and Orcs can be viewed in a number of appearances, due to time-traveling and demon-blood and time-traveling demon-blood. Typing that sentence made me hate myself. Suffice to say, I think it’s important to separate the initial invasion “Horde,” “Thrall’s Horde,” “Garrosh’s True Horde,” “Iron Horde,” and whatever they were called in Tanaan Jungle. On top of that, including all the races of the Horde (while they don’t get nearly as well fleshed out in the story) is pretty important.
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