Such as fermenting An’she as a real being 
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But you can use all your ever presented arsenal (if it did not die or collapse). Chimeras, wonderful dragons …
And the destruction of Orgrimmar by moonfire. Tyrande will drink a potion of invisibility, enter the city center and moonfire will kill all the high leadership of the Horde.
The horde does need to stop caring about what the alliance thinks, they owe the alliance nothing, after all the crap the alliance has pulled/done to them.
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Remember that the Alliance does not owe the Horde either. And if the Alliance wins, then nothing will save the Horde from destruction. Perhaps Anduin. And if the Horde wins … At least we will die against the background of lunar and icy fireworks, burning orcs in acid and burying them among the roots.
Someone engaging in some story forum rp it seems.
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By saying that no moral boundaries should apply to anyone anymore, what does that have to do with factions?
I decided to ignore it as well, it must be trolling actually.
Redemption, Redemption, honestly, the topic is dead anyway, the fronts hardened, already at the beginning of the whole thread it was not in the least, that there was really willingness to compromise and one of the first posts was even already, that the horde owe the alliance nothing, so, in my eyes, it is not about Redemption anymore. Its about rebuilding, fine, its a nice toppic, but not about redemption.
It’s why I refuse to respond to it.
More than likely, probably a bad idea on my part to feed the troll as it where.
Stop that.
I’d say there’s definitely a way for the Horde to redeem themselves, not just to the Alliance but to themselves. But that road is quite long, or filled with things hard to overcome.
To be fair, Jaina’s Grand Journey of Emotional Healing™ is buried really deep in non-mandatory late-expansion stuff.
I don’t think it was intentional misdirection. I think the storyline of BfA was pretty substantially rewritten at some point after the Warbringers shorts were finished or nearly finished, and that the original draft had a much more aggressive Jaina who did (at least for a time) fully subscribe to Daelin’s views. The evidence is only circumstantial, but it would explain things like that weird line from Rexxar about how Jaina “went too far, killed too many.”
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And since Blizz has dogmatically refused to give the Horde any “building up” attention over the last decade, and since we’re always forced to be the aggressors (whether we are allowed the luxury of reasons for that or not) … there is no path at all. Because Blizz is not interested in walking it. Because at the end of the day, the moment they want to re-ignite the Faction conflict …its going to be the Horde that are the aggressors. They will twist as much as they need for that. Because the Alliance can never be.
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Well we’ll see. Just because something was and is doesn’t mean it allways will be.
My only hope of the Alliance ever being on the aggro side of a Faction Conflict is my aforementioned Light Cosmology/Lightbound Incursion suggestion. While we, and the Peaceniks, are gone. Zoval just needs to do something to sever our connection to the real world to ensure we lose touch for a while. Trapping Anduin, Jaina, Baine, Thrall, Tyrande and Calia in the SLs. Perhaps even Shandris. Who, to date, I am still not entirely convinced wasn’t the real target of the attack on Tyrande.
There is a lot of prospect with such a path. But most importantly, it allows the Alliance to get some much needed grey and hits in; while not subjecting the Alliance PC to partake in that evil. I would never subject you guys to that awful feeling of being a mere passenger and tool to “evil” acts.
While I know I’m replying to Droite - I need to get this out of the way first.
@ Zarrin
I apologize but time this morning is not going to permit me to give your comment the full response that it probably deserves. But, I do think I should show my work in regards to why I made the statement that I did. This contains my references, and my reasoning.
http^s://forums.scrollsoflore.com/showpost.php?p=1624706&postcount=138
Getting back to Droite.
Your description of my position is somewhat off. If you were to ask me what would happen if I personally was transplanted into Tyrande’s body and asked to make her decisions, I would tell you that Tyrande would soon start sounding a lot like Wartime FDR, and “Unconditional Surrender” [of the Horde] would emerge as a popular demand (Anduin I think would still claim that I was consumed by vengeance, granted). That is a reflection of my own bias as an Alliance player, yes, but it’s also one of two counterarguments that I have for Alliance players who seem to think that the answer to this question is that the Horde need to pay reparations. I don’t think that resolves the issue from the Alliance’s perspective.
From the Alliance’s perspective.
The Horde doesn’t exist for the Alliance’s convenience, and while I argue that Blizzard has made you do way too much to my faction for the sake of shock value and the good versus evil narrative they want so bad, I am increasingly arriving at the position that when we discuss the concept of Horde “redemption” (which certain posters have lawyered into meaning forgiveness given by the victims) - I think we need to discuss it from the perspective of Horde players, and not from the Alliance as a faction. My post was a) an attempt to underline the scale of the problem, and b) an attempt to further close the door on the “reparations” argument.
My last comment to you is on the “who has it worse” argument. I’ve told you plenty of times already that this is a pointless discussion because it’s an apples to oranges comparison - especially when there’s a tendency to invalidate issues for pointless reasons, or to make comparisons that aren’t in the same playing field. The arguments that I see claiming to pass for logic on this topic resemble statements like: “There’s nothing wrong with your circles because our triangles suck - and that aside, it doesn’t matter if your circles aren’t actually round because Ion Hazzikostas told us that they were.”
So, I’d appreciate it if, for the good of the discussion and the forum as a whole, we refrain from such a pointless line of argument in the future, and instead concentrate on how we fix our respective problems.
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If you want to read it, it was posted to the board a couple of years ago. Just search for a thread titled “Is the Horde Fascist?”
But you responded to a counter to the argument that any and all reparations’ made by Horde reps who were not directly involved in the WoT are invalid, because they were directly involved in the WoT. Which means, since we don’t have any more reps that were directly involved in the WoT … no reperations attempts will ever count. So then, why should we ever attempt them?
Truly, if we’re left in the position that no matter what we do it wont matter … then we shouldn’t put our efforts into redeeming ourselves in the Alliance’s eyes. This is especially true for the NEs, who live forever and hold longer grudges. We should just focus on rebuilding and doing whats best for our people as much as possible; and if “redemption” is a byproduct of that down the road at some point. Neat. But its not worth wasting our time attempting deliberately.
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Bingo.
So, when I’m discussing redemption - and again, I’m a bit annoyed at some of the word-lawyering that’s gone on around this - I again think that such is a conversation about how we redeem the Horde in the eyes of its players, as opposed to the eyes of the Alliance.
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This.
Because at the end of the day, this is a two-faction game. And I don’t think it’s even been pointed out about the sheer influence and authority that the Horde’s position of Warchief has traditionally held, largely thanks to its modern counterpart dating back to loyalty to Thrall.
I feel like Horde soldiers—not necessarily players, but NPC soldiers—have traditionally felt an obligatory loyalty more to the position than the individual occupying it (again because of Thrall), and only more recently has the issue of, “Well, is the individual worthy of loyalty” actually been brought into question.
Which is how we get Sylvanas marching troops to Teldrassil with, “What the Warchief says goes, let’s go get us a ‘Good War’ for the survival of the Horde!”
That’s something the Alliance has never had to question about itself, re: its “High King,” largely because the Alliance has never faced the near-extinction level of adversity that the Horde did back in Lordaeron, and thus doesn’t feel as great a need for undying loyalty to its “overall leader,” as seen with the dispute between Tyrande and Anduin.
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Which is fair enough. And I think I said my peace on that. If Blizz truly wants to give a hint that they serious about redeeming the Horde, then the need to be serious about allowing Saurfang (as flawed as he was) to become the better thematic foundation for the Horde going forward that truly he can be in the right hands. Because his final message and intent was so much simpler and more primal than either of the prior foundation’s (Doomhammer and Grom) were.
THEY sacrificed themselves to try to make up for their past mistakes. Saurfang sacrificed himself simply wanting to give his people, his Horde, a chance at the honor he came to believe his own generation was never worthy of. Admitting, in the end, that he could never truly atone for his mistakes. Only accept them, learn from them, and try to do better. Which is why “The Negotiation” is my favorite of the BfA cinematics. That self-reflection from an Orc of his notoriety and generation, and his truest final wishes made him a better prospective foundation for the flawed, marred Horde than his predecessors.
Beyond that, we also need pillars built up to support that growth. That doing better. And thus we need indications that the most likely subjects (Thrall, Baine, and Vol’jin) will be allowed meaningful story arcs within SLs, that allow their characterization needs to come first AND help turn them into the leaders their people and the Horde need them to be. With meaningful resolutions (and preferably power-ups reflecting that growth) by the end of Shadowlands. Because truly, Baine being “The Token Good Horde Plot Device” at the expense of his own character should no longer be needed if Blizz is serious about rebuilding us finally.
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Do we also get more yummy Lor’themar/Thalyssra action?
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