How can we redeem/rebuild the Horde?

You’re contradicting yourself here. Either the orc internment camps were a moral option, or they weren’t.

Given what we see in Lord of the Clans with Adelas Blackmoore, I’m going to say they weren’t.

But as I pointed out in my above post, the kingdom that was primarily responsible for those camps paid for its rulers’ arrogance anyway, when its crown prince returned home with an army of undead.

If nothing else, Thrall got to have his own revenge/justice by being the one to personally kill Blackmoore and demolish Durnholde Keep.

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No they are not.

Not all concentration camps match genocide. Some like what the Germans did do, but what the old Alliance did, was not.

Your treating the Alliance likes the Axis when you refer to there concentration camps in the same vein as genocide.

Im not contradicting myself.

I brought up the fact some abuse happens in prison irl, that shouldn’t be. But it doesn’t make the whole “lock up murderers is bad” as a valid claim.

Welp I’ve seen it all

“Not all”-ing concentration camps

“We’re not like the other concentration camps. We’re cool, hip concentration camps”

NEFPAs gonna NEFPA tho.

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Technically-speaking, the camps run out of Durnholde were specifically known as internment camps. While that distinction may seem shallow and meaningless, it is worth noting that the term “concentration camps” usually refers to camps whose purpose is specifically death.

So the mass incarceration of, say, America’s Japanese population during World War II under Franklin Delano Roosevelt would be a better comparison.

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Right, just gonna re-quote myself here:

Because again, Terenas specifically created the internment camps so that he wouldn’t have to kill the orcs. It was to house them, not execute them, even if the conditions were absolutely horrifying under someone like Blackmoore.

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Correct, they are internment camps, and the only moral option for the orcs at the end of the war.

Im not justifying what Blackmoore and others did, they were also in the wrong.

But there immorality does not mean the orcs should have just been let go at the end of the war.

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I mean, they should have been released if the Alliance had somehow discovered a way to cure their felblood addiction, which Antonidas was actually starting to consider prior to emergence of the Scourge.

Sadly, both shortage of time and vengeful bigotry from both several Alliance leaders as well as Quel’Thalas ended up making that impossible.

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That’s fine? Good for them. Doesn’t change the fact that they are the extreme minority, and that Calia has no understanding of how Dangerous both Humans and Light Wielders can be for her people. Unless we’re going to whitewash Humanity entirely from their hatred of Undead, the Scourge, and even more recently the Forsaken … and just ignore that even Anduin had to struggle to find volunteers … its a good idea that Calia learn to maintain some distance from the Living. She can still maintain cordial relationships with them to some extent, but if she doesn’t find some professional distance it will endanger the Forsaken.

Again … unless Blizz whitewashes the Alliance further.

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You’re right the Alliance should have just wiped them out and gotten done with it instead. Or are we gonna sit here and play the “only when I/they do it” game and claim that the Humans should have just let the Orcs continue their invasion of another planet for hostile take over.

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As a note, Baine was not directly part of the WoT. Lor’themar was not part of the WoT. They are the only two Core Racial leaders we have left, and they have a history of being the most accepted by the Alliance.

Outside of that, Thrall is the current MU Orc Leader. Rokhan finally stepped up as Darkspear rep. Voss is holding down the fort on the Forsaken atm. Gazlowe is the new Trade Prince. Of these, Rokhan is the only one who’s shown to be antagonistic to the Alliance; and he’s never in his history actually started a fight. He just gets really invested in ending one on the Horde’s terms once it is started.

The AR leaders were also largely clueless, uninvolved, or swept up in the tide. And Geya’rah is the only one outside Wix to even side with Sylvanas, and considering her people’s situations; her not knowing Thrall or Saurfang; and her being the ultimate fish out of time and water … I don’t blame her for that. And she wasn’t even on Azeroth during the WoT. So … I’m not sure what your point her is with such invalidations?

Because if “being involved in the WoT” is the metric by which you judging valid reparations from Horde members, then the only remaining people who could even attempt to make valid reparations are Sylvanas, Nathanos, and Wix. None of which remain a part of the Horde, and are traitors.

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And here we have the problem with making the original narrative decision of having an entire people being portrayed as unreasonably relentless and unrelenting in their express of driving another into extinction to the point where they’d sooner die themselves than ever sue for peace. Because no entire group of people is actually like that.

It creates no room for nuance and makes darn near anything done seem reasonable in response. Even camps start to look like a good idea.

It’s much more conducive to a nuanced story is to present less dire stakes to the audience. Make the fighting over control a limited geographic area. Or access to a particular resource sit. Or part of a political goal. That way the audience can see the reasonable way out and rightly condemn genocide and camps and other crimes against humanity as being a bad thing.

When the stakes aren’t existence vs nonexistence and there is room for one side or the other to concede and not have to worry about being completely wiped out- you can still have lots of conflict and room for actual nuance.

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I mean - I’ve tried to avoid the topic of reparations because I don’t think they fix the problem. But if I am to attack that question, given what you’ve said here.

Baine wasn’t in the WOT directly, no, but he did personally defend Lordaeron, and he continued to contribute his people’s efforts to the Horde’s war effort. This was after Teldrassil, this was after Sylvanas raised her own troops, including some of his people. This was after Brennedam. Lor’themar is much the same story except that I cannot confirm that Blood Elves were raised into undeath at Undercity.

As for the Horde itself - I’ve stated before that it meets 10 of the 14 characteristics of Uberto Eco’s Ur Fascism. Of particular mention is the Orcish ideology, which regards wars of conquest as a good thing, is historically racially supremacist, and is bound tightly to a martial honor culture. On paper, the last of these should sound like a good thing - until you consider the problem of what you do to people who you consider to be dishonorable. The answer is - whatever you like, because they are dishonorable slime who are not to be afforded such courtesies. That’s why it’s okay to kill Night Elf shopkeepers when you take over Silverwing Refuge. That’s why it’s okay to force prisoners from Theramore into fighting their former allies under threats of death, torture, or harm to their families. That’s why it’s okay, when a goblin is asking you for fair payment - to pick him up by the collar and descend into a rant about how his people are “sapping the vitality of the Horde”. This is why Teldrassil isn’t anything to be concerned about.

That’s because “honor” is a matter of personal opinion, and the ideology allows you to cast anyone who doesn’t agree with the way you do things as honorless scum who deserve what they get. War crimes, pogroms, purges and genocides are not a bug of such thinking, they are a feature - and it doesn’t matter if a nation gripped by such an ideology is helmed by an authoritarian leader, a council, or even a democratic system. If the will of the people is to succumb to this brand of hatred, that situation is not tolerable.

This kind of a system is not compatible with peace. War and genocide is its eternal destiny, and especially if you share a border with a government that follows this kind of madness, they are an existential threat. The Alliance at its nicest really shouldn’t be in a position of tolerating the Horde’s capacity to self-govern - because they have demonstrated what they will do with that capacity, and with a military, on several occasions.

This is one reason among many for why I feel that reparations wouldn’t be enough. I don’t see what set of circumstances gets the Night Elves in particular to trust that the Orcs aren’t going to do this again. I don’t see it for the Worgen, I don’t see it for the Draenei. I don’t see it with anyone, frankly, except for people who have an ocean separating them from the problem, which Anduin conveniently does.

I want to pause here and note that this is not me celebrating and gloating. Blizzard was reckless and irresponsible to write the Horde in this way - but it appears that they have done such, and like Teldrassil, that’s not something you can get people to forget about or handwave. You can’t unring the bell.

Am I suggesting that the Alliance should oversee the Horde’s dismantling? From a fairness and game balance perspective, no, but I think that is a reasonable goal for them to have given everything that’s happened.

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You can’t possibly expect me to take you seriously about Thrall being the only one to do anything when you leave out that he was working alongside (not leading as Warchief) Talanji, Thalyssra, Baine, Rokhan, and Horde troops, and the reason Lor’themar and Gazlowe weren’t present on the scene was because they were with the Horde fleet sailing in to make sure Nathanos and company couldn’t escape by sea. Thrall wasn’t even the first Horde leader to get a hit in on Sira:

Thalyssra then surrounded her with her own troops:

None of the current Horde leaders took part in the War of Thorns. I don’t know why you keep leaving out details about what happened in order to make Thrall look better than everyone else, but it’s not helping your argument when you say the Horde should do something -vaguely gestures- and then shoot down every example that they are doing something with “oh, but not that, that doesn’t count.” Be specific about what you want to see, since apparently everything that the Horde is doing to improve either doesn’t count or is solely credited to Thrall, even though he’s not the Warchief and isn’t making decisions alone or in a vacuum. Why do you give credit to Thrall for talking to Tyrande (with Baine!), and not Lor’themar for saying, “If I had confronted Sylvanas, Teldrassil might not have happened and a whole lot of people would still be alive, so I have to do what I can to stop her”?

Shadows Rising gave the Horde leadership plenty of opportunity and reason to be aggressive towards the Alliance, and instead they were shown going out of their way to uphold the treaty and pursue diplomacy. Yes, going after Sylvanas happens to be in the Horde’s self-interest, that’s what happens when a character is hit with the villain bat and turned into an existential threat for the entire planet’s population. I’m sorry that there hasn’t been a convenient huddle of Alliance orphans for the Horde to rescue to show that we’re all nice now, since evidently you only count Horde actions as contrition if they are 100% altruistic and give no benefit to the Horde beyond earning apology points.

It’s quite convenient then that Sira has already been captured and delivered to Tyrande then, isn’t it? Any loyalists who refused to repent (not just combatants, but civilians, too) were imprisoned immediately after the end of the war campaign in 8.2.5; not sure if they’re all still in custody, as Thrall indicates that some have been exiled from the Horde in Shadows Rising. Delaryn was last seen as part of the undead Kaldorei rehab therapy group that Calia was overseeing at Lilian’s request; Calia has tried to talk to Tyrande about them (badly) without success. If the Alliance wants something more specific done about those who followed Sylvanas, they are welcome to discuss it through the diplomatic channels established with the armistice. Unfortunately I don’t think we’ll get specifics about any sort of trials in game, as that could be rather dull…unless we could somehow borrow the Accuser to help out, she’d be rather good at it and could make it interesting. I don’t foresee us getting Law & Order: Azeroth anytime soon.

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The rest of your post is pretty on-point, IMO, but I’d contest this note.

Night Elf racial fantasy has been picked apart, piece by piece, since WoW’s inception. And I imagine I posted something like this before but it bears repeating. And at the risk of derailing a ‘can we rebuild the Horde thread’ into more nelf nonsense, here we go.

  1. Druidism. Previously exclusive to night elves. Now, there’s more Horde druids who have apparently had druidism longer than night elves have (according to the tauren lore that Cenarius taught them first, and the presence of Zandalari being ancient as all hell, anyway). They could have reflavored Horde druids to something else, at least similar in premise to how they made Blood Knights not technically Paladins.
  2. The only playable Elves. Obviously, this went sailing out the window when they added Blood Elves. People made jokes about there being two different types of elves. “What’s next? Blood Dwarves?” But that’s a minor gripe at best.
    Sidenote: Also, removing any potentially magical mystique to their past by deciding, in a random lore book you could find in Booty Bay, that night elves descended from trolls. Again, a minor gripe.
  3. Peerless Amazon-esque warriors. Forgive the short-hand, but their quasi-matriarchal fighting force of women was one of the things that made them stand out from the “LOK’TAR” chest-thumping orcs and “for the king” humans. They were regarded as both savage and skilled, and yet in a post-WC3 universe, we see this just about never. They get hit with the Worf Effect to show how big and bad a given enemy is (namely the Horde), and need the Alliance to bail them out. Again, understandable seeing as how it’s an MMO and you need to cement the Nelves into said Alliance, but they made them feel ineffectual.
    3.1 - All the nelves can’t stop 1 orc clan from waging an eternal war for resources in vanilla.
    3.2 - They get pushed back past Astranaar by Garrosh Hellscream (and then rescued by Varian “Blessed By Goldrinn Himself” Wrynn and a bunch of worgen).
    3.3 - We don’t need to talk about how the War of Thorns and the Tides of Vengeance patch went down.
  4. Elune. After the debacle of BFA, nelf pride was at an all time low. But at least Elune had their backs, right? A Moon Goddess, entirely unique to night elves. Sure, the tauren recognized Elune but no one had Elune in their corner the way nelves did. They’re the only one with a priesthood to Elune. But wait, apparently Elune has been worshiped across the cosmos for many thousands of years, presumably for longer than nelves have even existed!

What do night elves have to hang their hats on, except for Malfurion’s antlers?

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I Googled around for this because I enjoy political science and the word fascism in particularly is often misapplied in culture today. I figured this would be an interesting comparative. I found a website (supposedly) summarizing these 14 typical features. I have no idea if these are fair representation, but it’s the only information I have. Just as a fair warning, you addressed the Horde as a whole (rather than simply Orcs) with your accusation of fascism, then pointed out some (incorrect) generalizations regarding them, so I felt addressing the races of both the Alliance and Horde was a better comparison (since this thread is about the Horde as a whole).

1. The cult of tradition: “One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The German WWII (Blizzard won’t let me use the party term) gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements.”

  • The only time I can think of any real attempt at syncretism in WoW is when Velen approaches Tyrande. It was not embraced. It’s very much not addressed elsewhere (beyond the concept of Blizzard-wide holidays which are by nature race- and faction-wide). As to adherence to tradition, there’s a strong tie across most races that emphasizes tradition. Blood Elves, Nightborne, Taurens of either type, and Orcs of either type seem to emphasize tradition (though in the case of the Orcs, while they place an emphasis on honor and ancestors, they also formed Thrall’s Horde as a rejection of the original Horde and just oversaw a move from the traditionalist Warchief title to a council rule). The Forsaken have multiple times implemented new structures (an Undercity council, an attempt to meet with their human relatives); Goblins really don’t have a “traditionalist” set of views unless you play off the “rip folks off at any cost” as an actual view; likewise unless “survivalist” is considered traditionalism by the Vulpera, they aren’t; and the Zandalari just changed from isolationist to joining a faction (and that change was after their role in Pandaria) and changed the patron Loa of Kings (and ostensibly Queens now). “Trolls” in general are so diverse that it’s hard to simplify them to one group, but I’d likely place them in more traditionalist - except that they’ve had a lot of upheaval leading to changes. They’re a mixed bag.

  • Humans (Anduin struggled to find humans willing to even meet with their Forsaken relatives/friends, and they still have a High King), Night Elves, and Draenei (especially Lightforged) seem pretty tradition-based in practices. Gnomes don’t seem to be as much tradition-based except in terms of new technology; Dwarves changed from a King to a council, and even emphasizes exploring to learn more about Titan ancestors; I can’t speak to Void Elf tradition since they’re relatively new. I’m not certain where to place Worgen (I’ll let Micah answer that question as resident expert) but from their limited amount of storyline time there seems to be some internal disagreement about best practices, so maybe non-traditional; and I’m not certain where to place Kul Tirans, but they did eventually reject Daelin Proudmoore. Truthfully, the Alliance struggles to have as many non-Human/Night Elf storylines, so they’re a bit harder to judge.

  • I would argue both factions have a mixed approach to traditionalism.

2. The rejection of modernism. “The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.”

  • I’m not sure there are any races that truly function this way, partly because I’m not sure when the “Age of Enlightenment” would apply to Warcraft. If you can make an argument about it, please feel free.

3. The cult of action for action’s sake. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.”

  • I think you could see some of this within the Horde, but it’s limited to a subset of Orcs. Likewise there is some of it within the Alliance, but it’s often short-lived and limited to moments of action justified as purging the “bad” faction (such as Varian’s racist speech that was undermined immediately after by Blizzard).

  • There’s somewhat of a cult of invention for invention’s sake among Gnomes but I don’t feel that’s really applicable to the spirit of this statement.

4. Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.”

  • Since the Horde has splintered multiple times, it’s hard to see whether that’s akin to treason, or simply overthrowing leadership that was “evil” in one form or another. Some were loyal to the leadership, others against it, and there were enough to form full blown rebellions so if disagreement is seen as treason, then there are plenty willing to commit treason. Saurfang and Sylvanas disagreed with tactics around the War of Thorns; Lor’themar and Thalyssra disagreed with actions taken by Sylvanas; Lor’themar and Sylvanas disagreed with each other in combat during the Siege of Orgrimmar; Garrosh and Sylvanas disagreed at Gilneas over a number of things; and both Baine and Thrall have expressed misgivings a number of times. in general there seems an abundance of disagreement. There are accusations of treason from time to time, but it’s rare that it’s actually treated as such.

  • The Alliance doesn’t really show any fracturing regardless of the extreme nature of neglect they show toward members. This could be portrayed as treason, but the narrative mostly portrays it as a willingness to accept any actions. The closest thing is Tyrande storming off recently, but even that wasn’t portrayed as treason.

5. Fear of difference. “The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.”

  • Considering Thrall’s Horde was formed against this type of action (found among Humans in particular) and was compromised of a number of different races, it’s hard to suggest this is true. The only exception would be Garrosh’s “True Horde” but at best that’s seen as going against the spirit of the Horde and the rest of the Horde ends up fighting against it. The Blood Elves have somewhat of a fear of Void Elves, but that’s mostly in Quel’thalas because their presence made the Sunwell erupt. That’s a pretty valid case.

  • Humans have moved somewhat away from this foundational stereotype, but they probably have historically more examples of this narrative. There are still lingering fears of the Forsaken due to differences and some anti-human sentiments expressed in racist statements, but the storyline has moved away from this.

6. Appeal to social frustration. “One of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.”

  • WoW has (in general) avoided this type of sentiment, primarily because it doesn’t actually play into economic and political actions excluding the extremes.

  • The best example might be Orgrimmar in general suffering due to disagreements over trade with the Night Elves in Ashenvale but that plotline was a small thread that escalated extremely quickly.

7. The obsession with a plot. “Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged.”

  • It’s Warcraft, the entire franchise is built around war and plots, most of which is actually real, besieging both sides. Every expansion has faced worldwide crises.

  • Internally, the Forsaken have obsessively felt oppressed by Humans who see them as abominations - which is a reality. The Alliance has felt threatened by “plots” from the Horde and pursued actions that they are often portrayed as justified in doing (including dismantling Horde settlements) and the Horde has felt threatened by the Alliance’s actions.

  • Foundationally, both factions view the other skeptically and in an extreme manner and use that to justify actions.

8. The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”

  • I can see some of this within the Horde, but much of it is portrayed in a tactical sense. The enemy has too much territory within the Horde’s “sphere of influence” but weak tactically at certain points.

  • In the most recent portrayal of the Alliance, the Horde should be dismantled due to the threat they pose in the future and their currently weakened state, but the Alliance is unable to execute these plans due to their own weakened state, causing an impasse.

9. Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. “For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.”

  • This is Warcraft; war is part and parcel of the franchise. Beyond the fanbase (which has made comments about Baine and Thrall being part of the Alliance), the narrative actually portrays peaceniks in a positive light.

  • Jaina tries to persuade her father to abandon his racist crusade against the Horde but is unable to do so as her father sees her as “with them.” The Kul Tirans as a whole hold that view.

  • Thrall’s Horde was formed as a group to struggle to form a life within a world that was hostile to them.

  • Again, Garrosh was portrayed as a leader of this sort (overly disavowing peace) but with much of Warcraft focused on … well … war, we see most instances in both the Alliance and Horde where people doubt peace can hold (and in fact, does not hold).

10. Contempt for the weak. “Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology.”

  • The Horde does have the Mak’gora tradition which suggests some level of contempt for the weak in the sense that being stronger is a justification of accepting their viewpoint. But the problem is this type of statement just doesn’t apply as a whole. Thrall’s Horde was founded on a bond that they were too weak separately to survive and needed each other.

  • I don’t believe the Alliance shows this aspect either. There are some sentiments expressed from small groups within Worgens that could be taken as akin to this, but that’s a bit of a reach.

11. Everybody is educated to become a hero. “In Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death.”

  • I’m not sure this is worth applying to a heroic fantasy video game.

  • Orcs tend toward believing it is better to die in battle than live as slaves, but among races on Azeroth they have recently actually been slaves. That’s an actual fear and threat. There really doesn’t seem to be any other ties in Warcraft to this notion as many folks take on roles that aren’t “warrior heroes.”

  • Others have expressed preferring to die than be raised as an undead, but that isn’t about heroism - it’s about the suffering of being an undead (and some racism toward the undead as a whole).

  • Every faction and race seems to (by necessity of a video game) have many who embrace a variety of different roles.

12. Machismo and weaponry. “Machismo implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality.”

  • I think Blizzard has done a lot to prevent this from being portrayed in either faction.

13. Selective populism. “There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.”

  • I have no idea what to say to this. Neither side seems to embrace this conceptually. Humans are “portrayed” as the main thread of the Alliance, but not to the extent that they diminish the other races. Similarly Orcs are often the main thread of the Horde, but not because they simply dismiss other races out of hand.

14. Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. “All the German WWII (Blizzard won’t let me use the party term) or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.”

  • You’ll have to forgive me. I don’t recall any quests involving indoctrination of children’s vocabulary, but I may have missed them.

In short:

  • 2 of these are applicable to decent segments of both factions.
  • 7 of these are not applicable to either faction.
  • 5 of these are not applicable within the WoW setting.

I don’t know how you came up with your count (and I readily admit I have not read the essay this is based upon). I don’t want to derail this thread into a larger political debate of fascism within Warcraft (where it would just result in constant attempts to rebut each claim) but it seems far easier to portray the Horde - in the narrative - as a failed nation-state than as a fascist one. They’ve had numerous extreme changes in government structures and multiple internal armed conflicts.

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We all know, and even confirmed, that the decision to give the BE’s amnesia and make them forget everything the Horde did was solely because Blizz was responding to the players and the Beautiful People demand.

That’s why these things aren’t brought up in the depth they should have been.But it was admittedly still one of the better entries in the time of WOW, but does not change the fact that it was not a lore reason, but a meta reason.

Silithus did not count for either Horde or Alliance. The Alliance was attacked by surprise in Ashenvale DESPITE this attack happened before. It was absolutely irrelevant for both sides.

So, what your point again? Nuances? Which nuances do you want?
I can see now, if this had happened, every time WOT would come up, you would be the first to defend it with silithus, you know what pisses you off, that you can defend the WOT only limited lore-wise, because in itself, that it existed, you don’t mind, you mind that there were no reasons for the WOT.

WOT without Teldrassil, of course. Meaning, in and of itself, you would have been cool with the night elves suffering that crushing defeat, right? So only Darkshore/Ashenvale Win for the Horde. it was the onscreen most successfull win of a faction over the other faction in the lifetime of wow.

Most Hordepeople are not angry thats the WOT Exist (like me!, i´m Angry that he exist in the first place, with or without Teldrassil), you are angry to get no reason to start this war, you want the alliance poke the bear and get a bunch of punches in the face for it, or in this case, this crushing defeat for it. That would be YOUR ideal-WOT, boaah, it´s so annoying to read this bs.

Just a reminder:
Never, never in an MMO - with two factions - should one faction be allowed to win so clearly over the other, never!

Teldrassil is to be excluded for all of this here again,its only about the WOT itself.

You do understand that this justified sentiment is why Horde players genuinely feel that despite everything the Alliance does truly have to complain about, the Horde players have it worse right? Because justifiably the Horde should not exist. The Horde races and cultures should not exist. That we the Horde players who fell in love with the Horde Characters, Races, and Cultures are being told we have no place in this game anymore? That the Alliance players should be allowed to truly just remove us from the game for what Blizz did and shamed use for themselves. Repeatedly.

So, OP, you coming into your own thread about “how to redeem/rebuild the Horde” and saying, “well, actually, there is no way to do it. They’re a bunch of genocidal monsters who should be put down” is an example of why a LOT of Horde players have given into PURE Apathy when it comes to Alliance players and their problems. If we are going to be the bad guys no matter what we do, then why on Earth should we consider the Alliance in our “redemption” and “rebuilding”? Because we can’t reasonably do either in their eyes, so screw em. The Horde will do what it always does, survive despite the being a compilation of abomination races and cultures who should not exist. The Universe is cruel and brutal … so why shouldn’t we be?

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I would have zero problems with that, if that starts to apply to both sides and if no more rules apply, no one should be allowed to complain about anything, because then everything - everything - is justified what had come and will come.

Oh Zahir, no. You’re trapped in your flawless perfect faction. If the Horde is always forced to be the aggressors even though we’re not allowed to have reasons to be (because the Alliance being antagonistic and aggressive aren’t virtues, they can’t be either), then you’re faction will always have your expected Absolutist Power Fantasy infringed upon by your Moral Absolutism you Zahir so clearly revel in.

My point is this. If there truly is no opportunity to “redeem” ourselves in the Alliances eyes, then frankly speaking … that shouldn’t be a primary concern for us. We just need to focus on rebuilding and bettering ourselves, and proving that we deserve to exist despite the Universe constantly telling us we shouldn’t. And if that means we have to carve out a place for ourselves to have a chance to prosper … so be it.

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