That is a night elf player perception problem. Not a Horde problem. It is not the Horde’s responsibility to fix how Night elf players perceive their race.
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The fact that the Horde people feel insulted and offended is the problem of the Horde people. It is not the duty of the night elves to fix the way Horde players perceive their faction.
Therefore, the Horde must die 
(laughter)
I have failed to find a thread asking Night Elf players to fix the Horde.
Perhaps you can point one out?
I’ll wait.
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Not one of your comments I quoted included a comment about a “strawman” argument or a logical fallacy. To steal from your playbook - did you even read what was there? They were predominantly you deciding what should be argued, you claiming people don’t understand your proposed suggestion, and you telling people they’re not addressing your problems. You literally replied to a post that pointed to you bullying folks, by insulting almost everyone responding to you and then me.
You have every right to disagree with proposed solutions, but it seems no one has a right to disagree with yours.
You’ve dismissed extreme solutions that people have put forward (even now calling them insincere solutions) even though they dislike the concept but struggle to find a better option. Your response is to offer dime store psychological advice and discard any ideas.
You’ve approached this question entirely based on fixing your feelings without accepting that your solution has been flatly rejected, up and down the line, because there simply is no interest.
You say the extreme ideas are insincere, well they are at least attempts. You’ve simply kept pushing the same idea over and over, with no consideration for the fact that the folks on the other end are proposing ideas so far counter to yours that you haven’t even realized that you’re the one who is completely off-base to finding an adequate resolution.
Sometimes the entire world isn’t wrong. You are. During pretty much this entire discussion you have come across with a set mindset.
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The night elves are pleading to fix the Horde - to destroy it.
We care about you.
Remember that you, too, can be wrong. We all live in echo chambers.
“Seven billion flies can’t be wrong.” I don’t know what this quote is for, it turned out to be suitable for me.
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Gonna go ahead and make a new thread titled “How can we redeem/rebuild the Horde (Actual Horde Edition)” later today
Gonna pull out the ideas the Horde players had to choose between them or help think of new ones
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I am wrong more often than I am right. Yesterday in this thread I was wrong about the context of a conversation Baal was involved in. I accept that and own it. I’m still willing to try.
Ideally, I’ll be the best person I can be as I slide into the grave. That’s about all I can hope for from life.
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So, what does the Horde feel guilty about?
If you have to ask that, than you honestly haven’t been paying attention to this now 3K+ thread.
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Maybe you need the topic “How to spoil the reputation of the Alliance”?
No, this is the topic of what the Alliance accuses her of. How does the Horde feel guilty?
If you have to ask that, than you honestly haven’t been paying attention to this now 3K+ thread.
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My memory is not so good and I do not read the text well enough to remember the shades of complaints. Usually it is “we were shown as antagonists again.” Where “we repent of … but this is not shown in the game.” Can I have a sample?
This whole thread just feels really deceptive now that we know what Kyalin really wants. And that saddens me. I thought they were interested in a genuine conversation about fixing HORDE problems.
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I do not understand. To do this, you need to know this movie / series / whatever it is?
Edit. Seems to understand. Will you spoil the reputation of the Alliance in all other topics?
Do not worry, sometimes you can also think about the Horde people.
When you are on the other side of repeated, catastrophic, humiliating defeats within the context of the 30 year old rivalry that stands as Warcraft’s strongest marketing point and greatest source of brand recognition because Blizzard keeps putting you there - yes, it does become that. The problems become linked.
@ Zarrin
Not one of your comments I quoted included a comment about a “strawman” argument or a logical fallacy.
Quote 5 concerns the use of a straw man fallacy.
Quote 6 is part of a satirical critique of a posting style that produces straw man fallacies.
Quote 7 is part of a satirical critique of a posting style that produces straw man fallacies.
Quote 8 is part of a satirical critique of a posting style that produces straw man fallacies.
Quote 9 is part of a satirical critique of a posting style that produces straw man fallacies.
Quote 10 is part of a satirical critique of a posting style that produces straw man fallacies.
Quote 17 concerns the use of straw-man fallacies
Quote 18 concerns the use of straw-man fallacies
Quote 19 concerns the use of straw-man fallacies
Quote 20 concerns the use of straw-man fallacies
Quote 21 concerns the use of straw-man fallacies
Quote 22 concerns the use of straw-man fallacies
Quote 23 concerns the use of straw-man fallacies
Quote 24 concerns the use of straw-man fallacies
Quote 25 concerns the use of straw-man fallacies
Quote 26 concerns the use of straw-man fallacies
Quote 27 concerns the use of straw-man fallacies
Quote 37 concerns the use of straw-man fallacies
Quote 40 concerns the use of straw-man fallacies
That’s the use of one fallacy. I didn’t go back and count false dichotomies, use of the is/ought fallacy, or flatly narcissistic ways of approaching these problems. That those quotes were replying to instances where posters were arguing against something that was not proposed is obvious in context, and most of the time, out of its context as well.
Why did that become a theme? Because when I presented a suggestion and asked if that, in the context of a battleground revamp, would constitute a way to restore motivation. I got one serious answer to that effect - I was asked if merely making it so that the Horde loses things really is good motivation. That was an area where I agreed that the proposal could have been clearer, and so I clarified. Otherwise, I watched the argument go like this:
“You made the Horde aggressors again!” - No, I explicitly didn’t.
“They’re invading Ashenvale!” - No, they explicitly were not.
“You want to villain bat the Horde again!” - The scenario gave it deliberately to the Alliance.
“You want to force me to PVP!” - The scenario was specifically stated to be optional, PVP content.
Then I saw people try to mend their errors by incorporating arguments like these:
“Blizzard will just make the Horde evil anyway!” - The suggestion presumes that the writers implementing it will not.
“The breaking of the treaty will mean that we’ll have another BFA!” - The suggestion works off of a model of stalemate with localized conflict.
“It isn’t credible that Night Elves would attack the Horde!” - I still don’t know why this person believed that - they were trying to call it a plothole, I think it’s more than well set-up.
And then finally…
“You’re only suggesting this because it will help Night Elves!”
The dumb, ridiculous purity test whose results we’re still scrutinizing - and by the way no, I didn’t ONLY suggest it for that one party. I believe this issue is an issue and want to solve in on those terms. But I object strongly to the idea that it can be solved by leaving other player communities in the cold.
That by the way, is the point where this was transmogrified into a “Night Elf” thread - because after all of the wriggling, my objectors decided that rather than telling me what they thought of the farmer character, or the scenario (the actual scenario, not the one they were forming in their head) - they wanted to make it about me wanting to find a solution that solved multiple issues at once. That was the crime - and I was pretty up front in my position that Horde motivation is, yet again, a part of a larger puzzle.
Hence why yes, I was dismissive. It’s why I will continue to be dismissive until I receive real answers to what I (actually) pitched, or a scenario that doesn’t pretend that this issue exists in a vacuum.
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